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Old 08-27-2004, 03:45 PM   #1
Telcontar_Dunedain
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Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage

Many times in Tolkien I have heard Beren and Luthien being referred to as the first mariage betweeen an elf and a man. But in a recent read of The Silmarillion and looking at the family trees I saw that Idril daughter of Turgon of Gondolin married Tuor son of Huor of the house of Hador.

Now someone please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that then make Beren and Luthien the secong elf-man marriage.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 08-27-2004, 03:58 PM   #2
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But the marriage of Tuor and Idril came after the marriage of Beren and Luthien (IIRC, that is).
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Old 08-27-2004, 04:01 PM   #3
Telcontar_Dunedain
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Oh. But it still says quite a few times (I think) that Beren and Luthien was the only one before Aragorn and Arwen.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 08-27-2004, 04:11 PM   #4
Lefty Scaevola
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Beren/Luthian was about 30 years before Tour/Idril.

Anyway there may be unnoted marriages between humans and elves other than these two plus Aragorn/Arwen,that were about the high, royal, mighty, famous, and notable, in a the small NW portion of ME. Both races may (JRRT was all over the palce on the possibilities of this subject) have been used in Morgoth and Suron's breeding programs of Orcs.

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Old 08-27-2004, 04:17 PM   #5
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 08-28-2004, 09:14 PM   #6
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Gandalf

This confusion arises, in part, from the common misreading of the passage in Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien says there that there were "three unions of the Eldar and the Edain". He doesn't say there were only three unions of Elves and Men. In fact, the reader has already been introduced to Imrahil's family lore, which indicates one of his ancestors was an Elf. We learn more about Imrahil's family history in Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth, where it is revealed that Imrazor the Numenorean married Mithrellas, a Silvan (non-Eldarin) Elf of Lothlorien.
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Old 08-29-2004, 12:07 AM   #7
Lefty Scaevola
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Even among the Eldar, there might have many unknown to historians and not"passed down to JRRT, the 'translator' of these tales" marriages to humans, particular among lower unnotable classes. Note that most of the stories we have center around the high. We even get a disproportianate amount of material about what little aristocracy there is among the Hobbits: The Took and Brandybucks, the near aristocractic Bolgers, and there well to do cousins of theses 3 families, the Bagginses.
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Old 09-06-2004, 12:13 PM   #8
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Wasn't Earendil an Edain and he married Elwing who was the heir of Thingol.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 09-06-2004, 12:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
Wasn't Earendil an Edain and he married Elwing who was the heir of Thingol.
Is this a question, or a statement?

Eh, Earendil was son of Tuor and Idril - so he was 1/2 Elf and 1/2 Man. Elwing was a bit complicated... she was: 1/8 Maia, 1/4 Man and 5/8 Elf. (from memory, I could be a bit wrong.)
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Old 09-06-2004, 12:23 PM   #10
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Wasn't Earendil just a man because didn't Idril have to become a human to marry Tuor?
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 09-06-2004, 12:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
Wasn't Earendil just a man because didn't Idril have to become a human to marry Tuor?
No. Tuor became an Elf, IIRC. The only one from all men.
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Old 09-06-2004, 12:37 PM   #12
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Why? Why didn't Idril become a human.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 09-06-2004, 12:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
Why? Why didn't Idril become a human.
Why would she become human? She was born an Elf.
I can't really tell you why Tuor became an Elf, there's probably someone who read the Letter/HoME to tell you that.
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Old 09-06-2004, 01:29 PM   #14
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I mena become a human like Arwen or Luthien did.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 09-06-2004, 03:26 PM   #15
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They didn't become human, they chose mortality. There's a difference.
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Old 09-06-2004, 03:54 PM   #16
Telcontar_Dunedain
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What were they then, because they can't have been elves because they were no longer mortal.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 09-06-2004, 04:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
What were they then, because they can't have been elves because they were no longer mortal.
Elves can die, if they wish to... remember they can die either of grief or from physical wounds. (It's all in the Sil)
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Old 09-08-2004, 02:39 AM   #18
Telcontar_Dunedain
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But they were immortal so if they wished then they didn't have to die.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 09-08-2004, 03:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
What were they then, because they can't have been elves because they were no longer mortal.
Physically and mentally they were still Elves. The difference was their fate after death. Lúthien and Arwen chose to share fate with Men, that is, that their spirits should leave the world when the body had died.
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Old 09-08-2004, 01:41 PM   #20
Telcontar_Dunedain
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So they were basically mortal elves.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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