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Old 02-22-2004, 04:07 PM   #41
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Then again Curunir wasn't an elf so that may not be very surprising.

Their behavior was indeed very uncommon for elven lords. One may wonder what Fëanor had thought if he had heard of it.
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Old 02-22-2004, 05:23 PM   #42
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Then again Curunir wasn't an elf so that may not be very surprising.


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Old 03-09-2004, 01:08 PM   #43
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Well, this chapter has many interesting "What ifs?" to it. What if Luthien and Huan had arrived slightly earlier at the Fortress, would Finrod have survived, would he have been able to make a difference taking the silmaril, would he have led a force into the Nirnaeth (in the next chapter) thus turning battle's tide? What if the knife had not broken and Beren had gotten all three silmarils?
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Old 05-18-2005, 05:20 PM   #44
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Another interesting note is that Finrod mentiones that so far Celegorm and Curufin have done all that he has asked and shown him friendship at every opportunity. Then he says the problems that bringing this up in front of them are going to cause.

It is almost scary to see the effect of the oath on all of the sons. People like to play it down and just pretend that they were evil in the beginning, but it is obvious they were as noble as any other elf, but this oath mastered them as it would ANY elf.
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Old 11-18-2018, 09:07 AM   #45
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I wondered at the absence of Melian from most of the tale. You'd think with her forsight and skill in song (i.o.w. magic) she'd at least play a more prominent role, at least as giver of advice.

She knew one would come, driven by a stronger force than hers (fate in this case) and break through her Girdle. But did she know how it would decide the fate of her daughter?

She knew it could endanger Thingol and she warned him of that but she doesn't counsel him on which action to take, and Thingol doesn't seek her counsel either. Because what does the dolt do? he gets himself entangled with the silmarils and the Oath. Tssk.

She also doesn't tell Thingol off when he goes one further and locks up their daughter! At least, as far as we know of. I wonder whether there is some lesser-known version of the Lay of Leithan, perhaps more in style of the Lokisenna, that was maybe sung very far away from Doriath and only late at night when too many drinks had been consumed, which in lurid detail tells of the dressing-down proud Thingol receives of his Maia-wife. One can only hope.

In any case Thingol seems to have started his fall from grace here. Here he makes light of Melian's warning of involving himself with the silmarils and then in the later chapter, he outright ignores her counsel to return the silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor. Was it just the influence of the silmaril or did Thingol in some part blame Melian for what happened to Lúthien and no longer heeds her counsel as he did before?

But also to Lúthien, Melian does not offer advice at any point. She does tell her of Beren's predicament in Sauron's dungeon, which spurs her daughter to attempt a rescue of her own. But perhaps Lúthien simply didn't need such advise. Nor does Melian seem inclined to hinder her daughter in her quest and movements either. In fact, she seems a lot more at ease with the idea of having a mortal son-in-law than Thingol. Which is maybe something Thingol resented.

But then... when Lúthien and Beren return from the dead, Melian is sorrowful when she looks at Lúthien and sees the full scope of her doom. So apparently Melian didn't forsee this fate for her daughter. I wonder then what fate she had forseen for Lúthien at Beren's side if Thingol hadn't meddled.
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Old 12-02-2018, 04:16 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Maedhros View Post
It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien.
In marriage,
Melian:Thingol :: Lúthien:Beren :: Arwen:Aragorn
Melian is far above Thingol; Lúthien is far above Beren, as Thingol observed and objected; Arwen is far above Aragorn, as Elrond observed, and though Elrond was wise enough not to object, he set very lofty goals for Aragorn, which his foster-son met in full.

In wisdom and advice,
Melian:Thingol :: Galadriel:Celeborn
Celeborn indeed filled the role of Thingol in many ways, and Galadriel filled that of Melian, even emulated her in setting some bound or “girdle” upon Lórien. But it was in her gentle rebuke of Celeborn when he decried Gimli’s entry into Lórien that Galadriel most resembled Melian, her mentor in Middle-earth; and unlike Thingol, Celeborn heeded Galadriel: perhaps he really was Celeborn “the Wise”.

Tolkien is sometimes accused of being a misogynist. Not so: it’s the men who always marry up, wedding women stronger, wiser, older, and richer than they.

In retrospect, Melian might have been searching or waiting for Thingol when they met. She bore him a daughter, Lúthien, and so the race of the Maiar was mingled with that of the Eldar. But it did not remain with the Eldar: Lúthien married Beren, and the lineage of the Maiar was among Mortals only: for there is no doubt Dior EluchÃ*l Lúthien’s son was mortal, or that his two sons lost in the Second Kinslaying were mortal: Mandos says as much in the Valar’s debate of what was to become of Eärendil and Elwing. Only if one of Elrond’s sons followed his father into the Uttermost West would any of that lineage remain among Elves except for Elrond and his parents.

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I wondered at the absence of Melian from most of the tale. You'd think with her forsight and skill in song (i.o.w. magic) she'd at least play a more prominent role, at least as giver of advice.

She knew one would come, driven by a stronger force than hers (fate in this case) and break through her Girdle. But did she know how it would decide the fate of her daughter?
I think it was in her mind to meet and mate with one of the Eldar. That must have come from the Music. No other Maia does this. (To make that point is why I reached back to the beginning of this thread.) She did not know the outcome of her actions, giving birth to Lúthien: The outcome of Lúthien’s actions was a matter of her Free Will, not her mother’s, and Melian was not privy to it beforehand.

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She knew it could endanger Thingol and she warned him of that but she doesn't counsel him on which action to take, and Thingol doesn't seek her counsel either. Because what does the dolt do? he gets himself entangled with the silmarils and the Oath. Tssk.
Thingol is having Elvish outrage. He wants to kill Beren, and thinks he has. As Maedhros pointed out, though, Beren’s relationship to Lúthien parallels Thingol’s relationship to Melian. (And when Thingol dies, Melian departs. When Aragorn dies, Arwen departs and dies. When Beren dies, Lúthien chooses to die, too.)

Thingol’s pride is driving his ill-advised course of action. I say “ill-advised,” because Melian objects to it, but not in front of Beren. It seems to have been an aside overheard in the court, and Lúthien seems to have witnessed it:
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O King, you have devised cunning counsel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.
That mightier realm is that of the Noldor, whose fate is entwined with that of the Silmarils.

I take that as Melian’s rebuking Thingol, and none too gently: Galadriel was kinder to Celeborn in Lórien. Thingol’s response was haughty, even towards his wife, and their daughter heard it and understood it.

No one asks, “How old is Lúthien?” Pretty old! Older probably than Arwen when she married Aragorn, and she was nearly 3000 years old. Lúthien understood in all their layers of meaning her mother’s rebuke of her father, and her father’s dismissive reply. She ain’t some flighty young teenage chick running on overstocked hormones and adrenaline. Her decision to follow Beren is indeed based upon deep love and affection, but she arrived at it in cold deliberation and logic as much as in warmest emotion.

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She also doesn't tell Thingol off when he goes one further and locks up their daughter! At least, as far as we know of. … maybe sung very far away from Doriath and only late at night when too many drinks had been consumed, which in lurid detail tells of the dressing-down proud Thingol receives of his Maia-wife. One can only hope.
The rebuke Melian has already delivered can be much stronger if you consider it sarcasm. It certainly has those overtones: the voice of the speaker and her inflections would control whether it was gentle or sarcastic, and even if delivered gently, the underlying sarcasm would eventually leave Thingol with bitter taste when pondered it.

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In any case Thingol seems to have started his fall from grace here. Here he makes light of Melian's warning of involving himself with the silmarils and then in the later chapter, he outright ignores her counsel to return the silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor. Was it just the influence of the silmaril or did Thingol in some part blame Melian for what happened to Lúthien and no longer heeds her counsel as he did before?
He is definitely ignoring his wife, who is much wiser (and far older!) than he.

I think Thingol is suffering from pride and an inflated opinion of himself. It eventually gets him killed by the Dwarves of Nogrod in his own fortress, which they helped him build; and ignoring Melian’s counsel to return the Silmaril leads to the ruin of both Doriath and the mixed company of Eldar and Edain at the Mouths of Sirion; but it also permits Eärendil’s embassy to Valinor.

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But also to Lúthien, Melian does not offer advice at any point. … Nor does Melian seem inclined to hinder her daughter in her quest and movements either.
I think she’s not supposed to advise Lúthien. This seems to me some plan of Eru’s, and Melian is the agent through whom it is achieved.

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when Lúthien and Beren return from the dead, Melian is sorrowful when she looks at Lúthien and sees the full scope of her doom.
Even if Melian meets Lúthien again at the end of Arda, that’s going to be a very long time. And you might remember that the Elves knew nothing of what happened to them after Arda.

By the way, Melian doesn’t wait in Doriath to meet her grandson, Dior. She leaves before he arrives. Of all the descendants of Melian and Lúthien on Elrond’s side, the only ones to know their grandparents are Elrond’s children, who knew Galadriel and Celeborn well. Dior never meets Melian. Elwing never meets Lúthien. Elrond never meets Dior. Elrond’s children never meet Elwing. Arwen’s children never meet Elrond.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:50 PM   #47
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Tolkien is sometimes accused of being a misogynist. Not so: it’s the men who always marry up, wedding women stronger, wiser, older, and richer than they.
I don't think the men marrying up is necessarily a good argument against misogyny. One could argue that it makes Elven women into prices to be won, not actual beings with an agency of their own. And in turning this around one could say that in all Tolkien's work there is not one mortal woman ever good enough for a Elvish husband.

Not that I think Tolkien was a misogynist. I'd say that the Tale of Lúthien and Beren is about the strongest argument one can make against it. Lúthien is capable, brave, wise and she knows what she wants. She is no passive princess pining in a tower, either way you turn it. Beren needs Lúthien perhaps more than she needs him in their adventures and they alternatingly help one another out from a tough spot. Beren doesn't simply love her because she's beautiful, he also clearly respects her wishes and her capabilities.

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I think it was in her mind to meet and mate with one of the Eldar. That must have come from the Music. No other Maia does this. (To make that point is why I reached back to the beginning of this thread.) She did not know the outcome of her actions, giving birth to Lúthien: The outcome of Lúthien’s actions was a matter of her Free Will, not her mother’s, and Melian was not privy to it beforehand.
But free will obviously doesn't hide potential outcomes from those with foresight. While I agree that Melian would not be able to know the outcome of Lúthien's actions, it would surprise me that Melian had no idea that her daughter would get involved in this particular forsight.

But there is so little actual texts to go on on whether Melian had any specific plans with Thingol or to what extent she had orchestrated their meeting (if any) in the first place. We can only speculate in what way Melian foresaw the events of the Lay of Leithan. If she had had a specific purpose to mate with an Elf, there must have been a purpose for Lúthien too.

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He is definitely ignoring his wife, who is much wiser (and far older!) than he.

I think Thingol is suffering from pride and an inflated opinion of himself. It eventually gets him killed by the Dwarves of Nogrod in his own fortress, which they helped him build; and ignoring Melian’s counsel to return the Silmaril leads to the ruin of both Doriath and the mixed company of Eldar and Edain at the Mouths of Sirion; but it also permits Eärendil’s embassy to Valinor.
Much of his really bad decisions happen when Thingol has the Silmaril, as if it prevents him from thinking clearly. I'd agree it is pride that has him set it as a goal for Beren beforehand.

But afterwards... Tolkien often hints at it being the lust for the Silmaril that eventually gets him killed. Which makes me wonder somewhat because the things are supposed to be hallowed by Manwë, and yet they seem to cause a lot of evil all on their own. Even Lúthien's death is supposedly hastened by wearing it. Not so holy and innocent then.

As for Eärendil's embassy, I'm hesitant to say that Melian knew of this also. It would require a lot of foresight and planning. And Eärendil fate is much more guided by Ulmo's actions, unless one argues that Ulmo and Melian had the same distant goal in mind and Ulmo had greater plans for Tuor from the start apart from trying to save Gondolin.

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I think she’s not supposed to advise Lúthien. This seems to me some plan of Eru’s, and Melian is the agent through whom it is achieved.
Leaving potential duty out of it for a moment, Melian clearly loved Thingol and Lúthien. If my mom had foresight, you bet I'd consult her on this sort of thing.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:28 PM   #48
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And in turning this around one could say that in all Tolkien's work there is not one mortal woman ever good enough for a Elvish husband.
The closest to a mortal woman being good enough for an Elf, is seen in the relationship between Aegnor/Aikanaro and Andreth. I wonder why he didn't marry Andreth. It could be in order to protect her, in view of the wartime they lived in and the wars he saw coming. It could also be because his brothers didn't think it was a good idea.

I don't think it was that he didn't see her as good enough - after he had been killed in the wars, he chose to stay with Mandos till the end of time, rather than go back to Valinor as his brother Finrod did. He didn't want anyone else for his wife.

I need to read the Athrabeth again to see what reason Finrod chooses to give Andreth for Aegnor's choice ...
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Old 01-17-2019, 06:26 PM   #49
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I had not forgotten the Athrabeth. It is to my knowledge pretty much the only case known of that sort of love between a mortal woman and an Elf. There are far more instances the other way around. Which is perhaps why it still rubs me wrong a little bit because everybody seemed to be so darned convinced it could never work! Whyyyy?

I don't remember it much, it's been a while since I read it, but I remember not being particularly impressed by the reasons eveybody gave for being opposed.

So it partly spurred me on to make the general observation that mortal woman just don't seem to be 'high' enough for elven husbands. And as a mortal woman (alas!) myself, it obviously annoys me.
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Old 01-19-2019, 02:09 PM   #50
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I don't remember it much, it's been a while since I read it, but I remember not being particularly impressed by the reasons eveybody gave for being opposed.
I fear there isn't much to be impressed about in that respect ...

And all we hear in that story is one elf's point of view. It's a conversation only between Andreth and the brother of her loved one. Perhaps he (Finrod) is biased? He speaks for all the others there, does he give a true account of the other's reasons?

And perhaps he thinks Andreth isn't good enough for his brother and doesn't allow him to go on with the relationship?

This is perhaps fanfiction rather than interpreting the text (I have even participated in some RPing about it), but interesting all the same ...
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Old 01-20-2019, 01:17 PM   #51
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There's something to be said for that line of thought. But... why did it have to be Finrod?

Now if this was someone of the Fëanoreans, or even Thingol, one could understand the obvious bias and dismiss it accordingly.

But Finrod...Finrod was by all accounts a reasonable, intelligent and straight-laced guy. And he probably knew more about humans than the majority of the Noldorin Princes due to his higher interaction with the House of Bëor.

By all accounts Finrod of all people had to know what he was talking about. And then he does something like this.

One of the reasons I am not quite a Finrod-fangirl, despite all the other good stuff he had going for him.
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