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Old 03-27-2003, 02:30 AM   #1
Sister Golden Hair
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Beren and Luthien

I'm just wondering why Luthien and Beren didn't just do what they wanted. Why didn't they just get married in spite of Thingol's wishes? Thingol imprisoned Luthien in the tree house to assure that she would not follow Beren on his quest of the Silmaril, but she escaped and did follow and rescued him from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Why was it so important at that point after she had defied her father's wishes to achieve the quest, knowing that his intent was to accomplish Beren's death?

Btw, what were the marriage customs between Elves and Men? L and C in Morgoth's Ring states clearly the customs of the Elves.
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Old 03-27-2003, 05:01 AM   #2
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Did not Luthien become mortal when she wed Beren?
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Old 03-27-2003, 05:03 AM   #3
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Quote:
I'm just wondering why Luthien and Beren didn't just do what they wanted. Why didn't they just get married in spite of Thingol's wishes?
After Beren had returned from Angband where Finrod was slain, Luthien did try to persuade Beren to flee with her. She would rather have a life roaming in the wild with Beren than live in solitude in Doriath. But Beren had sworn an oath to Thingol, and he would not break it. Luthien could not make him sway.

I think this part from the Lay of Leithian says all about Beren's mood:
Quote:
For never more to Doriath
can Beren find the winding path,
though Thingol willed it or allowed;
for to thy father there I vowed
to come not back save to fulfill
the quest of the shining Silmaril,
and win by valour my desire.
"Not rock nor steel nor Morgoth's fire
nor all the power of Elfinesse,
shall keep the gem I would possess":
thus swore I once of Luthien
more fair than any child of Men.
My word, alas! I must achieve,
though sorrow pierce and parting grieve.'
Beren was a wise man IMO. He recognized his doom. Besides, breaking an oath was a grave matter.

Quote:
Btw, what were the marriage customs between Elves and Men? L and C in Morgoth's Ring states clearly the customs of the Elves.
It was hardly enough marriages between Elves and Men to establish a custom. I would think they followed the custom of the people where the wedding took place.
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Old 03-27-2003, 05:24 AM   #4
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Well...'Laws and Customs' tells us that the giving of the Ellesar from Galadriel to Aragorn was following the usual Eldarin wedding laws of the bridal gift frommother in law to son in law.

So I assume they follow the usual Eldarin laws of marriage, for the most part.
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Old 03-27-2003, 07:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
I'm just wondering why Luthien and Beren didn't just do what they wanted. Why didn't they just get married in spite of Thingol's wishes? Thingol imprisoned Luthien in the tree house to assure that she would not follow Beren on his quest of the Silmaril, but she escaped and did follow and rescued him from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Why was it so important at that point after she had defied her father's wishes to achieve the quest, knowing that his intent was to accomplish Beren's death?
Beren's love was too great to simply flie with Luthien. if he had done so he would have "forced" her to break with her parents. accepting the quest there was a chance that Luthin might keep both his love and her parent's.
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Old 03-27-2003, 08:27 AM   #6
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Originally posted by Fat middle
Beren's love was too great to simply flie with Luthien. if he had done so he would have "forced" her to break with her parents. accepting the quest there was a chance that Luthin might keep both his love and her parent's.
That's also a good point. Beren didn't want Luthien to go around in the forests with little guard, because he knew that Morgoth and his servants would now be looking for them everywhere. He would rather have Luthien safe in Doriath, guarded by Melian's girdle, even if that meant they would be separated for ever.
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Old 04-11-2003, 06:06 AM   #7
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IMO, Beren didn't want to marry Luthien without Thingol agreeing it.
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Old 04-11-2003, 07:56 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lalaith
IMO, Beren didn't want to marry Luthien without Thingol agreeing it.
I agree. He wanted it all to be perfect for them both, so that Luthien wouldn't have to be estranged from her family etc . And like others have said, he wanted to prove his love and his worthiness of Luthien, knowing that Thingol thought him far below her standard.
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Old 04-11-2003, 02:02 PM   #9
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I agree. He wanted it all to be perfect for them both, so that Luthien wouldn't have to be estranged from her family etc . And like others have said, he wanted to prove his love and his worthiness of Luthien, knowing that Thingol thought him far below her standard.
And I agree with you.
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Old 04-11-2003, 08:03 PM   #10
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It's a classic theme, the disapproving father meddles and ruins life for himself and everyone else.

Why did John avoid Elizabeth as commanded by his guardian? Why did he go off to a horrible existence in the trenches? We might say they were old enough to decide for themselves, but we live in a different world. I don't think Tolkien could bear taking Elizabeth away from the place he called Kortirion. They didn't want scandal to dog their heels for their whole life together. They wanted to be accepted by their families as adults and good future parents. So he went off to fight and imagined Beren and Luthien as a story, and when he came home she nursed him back to health and copied it out neatly into a notebook for him.

So Beren had to go after the Silmaril. In fact, there may have been no Silmaril until Tolkien decided not to elope with Elizabeth. There may have never been any of it without the Silmaril, just a whimsical gyu who imagined the fae still living among the oaks whose checquered past might have interfered with his university (island) future.

Not that I'm saying Tolkien would EVER write allegory.
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Old 04-11-2003, 10:53 PM   #11
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Wow. That's very insightful, Elfhelm. I never thought of that.

One question, though: I thought his wife's name was Edith, not Elizabeth?
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Old 04-12-2003, 03:41 AM   #12
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Not that I'm saying Tolkien would EVER write allegory.
Of course not!
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Old 04-12-2003, 06:15 AM   #13
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Have you read the first version of Beren and Luthien in BolT?
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Old 04-12-2003, 06:21 AM   #14
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Who? Me? No, I haven't read any of the HoME yet. I will, just as soon as I finish LotR, then the Hobbit & UT.

Why? What about it?
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Old 04-12-2003, 06:25 AM   #15
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You or anybody else.
I've read it (the only part of the 12 HoME books that was translatet into german).
there is also an older version about Beren and Luthien in it. There, Sauron is a Cat.
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Old 04-12-2003, 06:42 AM   #16
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Sorry? A cat? Maybe you should post in the Quotes in other Languages thread. Should be interesting to see other quotes you have. *sigh.. the road of meat...*
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Old 04-12-2003, 11:16 AM   #17
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Yes, a cat. I should check the other language thread.
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Old 04-13-2003, 12:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lalaith
You or anybody else.
I've read it (the only part of the 12 HoME books that was translatet into german).
there is also an older version about Beren and Luthien in it. There, Sauron is a Cat.
I've read it also, but I didn't think Sauron was the cat, though. What is his name? I think it started with a "T" and he is the Prince of Cats. Beren ends up working in his kitchen when he is caught. Then Huor ends up killing him when Lúthien goes to rescue Beren.
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Old 04-13-2003, 01:27 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ruinel
I've read it also, but I didn't think Sauron was the cat, though. What is his name? I think it started with a "T" and he is the Prince of Cats. Beren ends up working in his kitchen when he is caught. Then Huor ends up killing him when Lúthien goes to rescue Beren.
Tivaldo? Something like that? .... *runs off to check* Tevildo - prince of cats.
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Old 04-13-2003, 03:08 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ruinel
Then Huor ends up killing him when Lúthien goes to rescue Beren.
I assume you mean Huan, the Hound of Valinor?
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