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Old 01-30-2004, 08:37 AM   #21
Turgon_Turambar
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Nazgul

I know it seems aparently true now but i just want to make sure. Did Morgoth acctualy control the volcanoes of the sudden flame?
Did he make them erupt, because if he did thats some power and why didnt he just do it again in the 5th battle? make it look like hes losing, draw all his enemies close to the walls then hit them with his sudden flame again, saving himself alot of casuaties.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:54 AM   #22
Lefty Scaevola
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The nature of the sudden flame is not discussed. It is not stated if it was a volcanic or something else, perhaps a chemical flame weapon . Its description does not fit volcanic activity. The Thangordrim are not volcanoes, but big heaps of excavated material and industrial slag and ash. Nor would it be a tenable situation to have a huge underground city in the immediate vicinity of active vulcanism. Note that Sauron did not have permanent facilities on or next to Mt Doom, and had to constantly rebuild his access to the chambers of fire. The speed is too fast for lava flows, and two slow for a pyroclastic explosion, and goes too far a distance for either, reaching ranges only known for caldera type explosions, which are mostly ejecta rather than flame, and would have destroyed Thangordrim and Angband, leaving nothing but a caldera type crater.
I have always suspected that it was a chemical flame weapon, launched both from sites on top of Thangordrim, the Mountains of Oppression, and from tunnels under the plain, the latter behind many Elven encampments and thus cutting them off.
Morgoth was not interested in saving casualties, except as to preserve what force he needed for immediate future operation. His ultimate personal objective, as he sank into his nihilism as the war went on, upon obtaining total control was to eliminate ALL other sentience in Arda, and possess the creation alone. His own forces were a pain to him, just less so than opposing forces. For the Fifth battle there was no longer natural fuel available to add to the fire on the plain. The grass was gone and there was only dust. Nor were the Elves camped upon the plain where they could be surprised by the flame. For his surprises in that battle he was relying om treachery among the forces under Maedhros.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 09-11-2019 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 04-21-2016, 05:58 PM   #23
Calandil
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1. They probably thought that they could deal with any attack Morgoth sent. Very few Elves thought that Glaurung was a major threat to them. They also had a large Mannish population. They probably underestimated the importance of barbarian Men, so the rest of Middle-earth would not be one of their concerns.

4. They may well have thought that Nargothrond would be a good place to start their takeover of the Elven kingdoms. If they had Nargothrond under their control, then not only would their house have much more power, but the sons of Fëanor would also have a good place to retreat to.

5. There is no "long term chance for security" after the Dagor Bragollach for anyone, and Thingol was probably wise enough to see that. Although the power of Melian could not protect against Morgoth indefinitely, it could protect against Morgoth for a while. I doubt that "mutual support" (I am assuming that this means in "going out to war") would keep the Elves (and Men) as secure as the policy of Thingol did.

7. The evil Men had not yet arrived in Beleriand. Morgoth was probably kept too busy with the Noldor to hurry his Men over the Ered Luin.

8. There is too little information to be sure, but it was probably more sorcerous. Attacks by Sauron are generally sorcerous.

10. Ulmo was involved in making the mist that hid Húrin and Huor from the Orcs. He also let Turgon know that he should deal kindly with Húrin and Huor, which seems to have been the reason why the Eagles rescued them. He may or may not have been involved in other things as well.
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Old 11-16-2018, 08:06 AM   #24
Earniel
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I think there's perhaps an error in my edition of the Silmarillion. In the text it says that the sudden fires coming from Thangorodrim are faster than a balrog can run. Then it says a little further that Glaurung, followed by a train of Balrogs were in front of the fire.

This makes no sense when put together. Unless all those balrogs (and orc armies behind stil!) were rather out of breath and slightly singed by the time they made contact with the enemy.

It makes much more military sense for them to come behind the fire and then mop up what remains for the Eldarin defenses.

Unless, I am misreading (not a native speaker after all) and 'came in front' rather refers to Glaurung and the armies at his heels coming after the fire, but moving further than the fire did.
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Old 12-02-2018, 02:48 AM   #25
Alcuin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eärniel View Post
…in my edition of the Silmarillion[, ] the text it says that the sudden fires coming from Thangorodrim are faster than a balrog can run. Then it says a little further that Glaurung, followed by a train of Balrogs were in front of the fire.

This makes no sense when put together. …

It makes much more military sense for them to come behind the fire and then mop up what remains for the Eldarin defenses.

Unless, I am misreading (not a native speaker after all) and 'came in front' rather refers to Glaurung and the armies at his heels coming after the fire, but moving further than the fire did.
Eärniel, my copy at hand reads the same as yours. It does not make sense, unless there were “rivers” of fire (lava, perhaps: Thangorodrim does sound rather volcanic, as was Orodruin in Sauron’s Mordor), between which Glaurung, the Balrogs, and the orcs attacked. It has nothing to do with native speaking: it appears to be self-contradictory upon examination.

I am unfamiliar with the textual history of this passage. If it came from a single set of writing, then JRRT must have overlooked the contradiction, since they are in two different if adjoining paragraphs. If stitched together from different source documents, that would be an editing oversight.

If the movement of the fire is preternatural but otherwise merely fire, there is no problem with Orcs and the like tromping across the burned ground behind it. If it is lava, then it must be “rivers” of fire, because there is a problem with anything other than (perhaps) dragons and Balrogs wading around in it. Since Balrogs are embodied, I think in Tolkien’s world they could be unhoused by lava – they can be killed by getting thrown off mountains (by both Gandalf and Glorfindel). If Balrogs can be destroyed by swimming or wading in lava, that begs the question whether dragons could survive it, either, despite P. Jackson’s Smaug surviving molten gold poured over him.

But it is a dramatic passage conveying a sense of confused rush and overwhelming assault. And that may be its only purpose: any survivors might have delivered conflicting accounts of events.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:59 AM   #26
Earniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
Eärniel, my copy at hand reads the same as yours. It does not make sense, unless there were “rivers” of fire (lava, perhaps: Thangorodrim does sound rather volcanic, as was Orodruin in Sauron’s Mordor), between which Glaurung, the Balrogs, and the orcs attacked. It has nothing to do with native speaking: it appears to be self-contradictory upon examination.
Well, I'm not sure the Thangordrim was actively volcanic. Orodruin certainly was, since it was essentially Sauron's forge. And the nearby Iron Mountains potentially had volcanoes of a kind because they at least once spout fire. But Thangorodrim is described in chapter 14 as a mountainside being raised by piling giant heaps of slag and ash from underground furnaces, as well as dirt and rock from excavations, on it. It doesn't quite sound as a bonafide volcano. Although there must have still been rigid enough mountainfaces to hang Maedhros from. There are often issuing giant clouds and smoke from Thangorodrim but fire or eruptions from the peaks are not mentioned as far as I remember. I don't think the smoke was a by-product of an active volcano, I'd say the smoke is deliberate made, to hide himself and his minions from the glare of the Sun, which they couldn't stand.

Quote:
I am unfamiliar with the textual history of this passage. If it came from a single set of writing, then JRRT must have overlooked the contradiction, since they are in two different if adjoining paragraphs. If stitched together from different source documents, that would be an editing oversight.
I suspect this might be the case. It is perhaps possible that Tolkien intended several different fire bursts and that as the first one died down, the armies with Glaurung and the Balrogs passed at the front of the second (slower) wave and that distinction was perhaps lost in the editing process. But I also like your explanation of conflicting reports of survivors. It does sound like a harrowing and dreadful event.

Quote:
If the movement of the fire is preternatural but otherwise merely fire, there is no problem with Orcs and the like tromping across the burned ground behind it. If it is lava, then it must be “rivers” of fire, because there is a problem with anything other than (perhaps) dragons and Balrogs wading around in it.
Lava doesn't quite moves as fast. Pyroclastic flows (burning clouds of ash and hot air) would travel fast enough across the plain to catch all those Elves unaware and kindle their homes and forests. (But I am unaware if the concept was known in Tolkien's time and a quick googling doesn't yield answers.)

But rather I have a hunch that the fire was here not meant to be a natural phenomenon. Personally I suspect that Tolkien's war experiences play a bigger part than natural science and that the Sudden Flame is an invented weapon of war. Napalm comes to mind, but is a WWII invention, but they did use incendary bombs in WWI. Of all the battles Tolkien wrote, the Dagor Bragollach does come closest to the battelfields and horrors of WWI.

Quote:
Since Balrogs are embodied, I think in Tolkien’s world they could be unhoused by lava – they can be killed by getting thrown off mountains (by both Gandalf and Glorfindel). If Balrogs can be destroyed by swimming or wading in lava, that begs the question whether dragons could survive it, either, despite P. Jackson’s Smaug surviving molten gold poured over him.
Going by the account in LoTR of the Balrog in Moria, he doesn't seem quite disturbed by being wreathed in fire. His mane was kindled and the lower levels of Moria were aflame, it would make sense the Balrog likes them to be thus. So likely their body is much more like the 'rainment' the Valar and Maiar clothed them in, then the bodies of the Children of Illúvatar or the Istari. Their bodies wouldn't be flesh and could very well be imperivious to flame. They carry flaming swords after all.

But unlike the Valar, their rainment seems to be one of a kind. Mmmh, it's a bit confusing all the same just what a Balrog's body could stand.

Still, wading through molten rock, even if it does nothing to you, will slow you down either way, so it doesn't quite sound like a good way to approach an enemy. (Still, now I have this rather amusing image in my mind of a Balrog that wasn't advancing quickly enough and got caught in the cooling and hardening lava and had to be freed with pickaxes by grinning orcs.)

Oh, how I muttered angrily (to the amusement of the family) during the whole fight scene with Smaug in the Lonely Mountain, not only was it pointless and needlessly drawn-out -- therefor robbing it of any poignancy but... Gold.Just. Doesn't. Work. That. Way! Aaargh!
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