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Old 03-11-2004, 06:37 PM   #21
Artanis
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Isn't the sword Anglachel/Gurthang amazing? Folks, this sword speaks! That Dark Elf Eöl could do a trick or two. But where does it say that he made it from a meteor?
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:07 PM   #22
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Theoden

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
Isn't the sword Anglachel/Gurthang amazing? Folks, this sword speaks! That Dark Elf Eöl could do a trick or two. But where does it say that he made it from a meteor?
Right when Beleg takes it:

Quote:
Then Beleg chose Anglachel; and that was a sword of great worth, and it was so named because it was made of iron that fell from heaven as a blazing star; it would cleave all earth-delved iron. One other sword only in Middle-earth was like to it. That sword does not enter into this tale, though it was made of the same ore, by the same smith; and that smith was Eol the Dark Elf, who took Adrahel Turgon's sister to wife. He gave Anglachel to Thingol as fee, which he begrudged, for leave to dwell in Nan Elmoth; but its mate Anguirel he kept, until it was stolen from him by Maeglin, his son.
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:00 AM   #23
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Thanks Val. Then my next question is: Where did CRT get that detail from?
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:32 AM   #24
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Sorry for being ignorant, but who is CRT? Is it Christopher Tolkien? If so, I dont really understand the question, didnt he only put the Sil together from his fathers unfinished drafts or whatever? Not trying to be rude, I just dont understand.
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:43 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beor
Sorry for being ignorant, but who is CRT? Is it Christopher Tolkien? If so, I dont really understand the question, didnt he only put the Sil together from his fathers unfinished drafts or whatever? Not trying to be rude, I just dont understand.
You're not rude nor ignorant. Yes, CRT is Christopher Tolkien, and you're right, he did write the Sil by putting together bits here and there from his fathers writings. And therefore I would expect to find that detail about the sword being forged from a meteor in one of the HoME books or the Narn, but I'm unable to find it. I was hoping that someone else knew.
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Old 03-12-2004, 02:48 AM   #26
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Gotcha. I'll check around later, but I havent noticed it anywhere either, and the sword brings up a good point as well; would any sword have worked to bring about the doom of Beleg, or was it that sword, rather than Turin that caused Beleg (who kicks ass) to die?

Maybe Jonny just threw it in and never got around to clarifying it.
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:28 PM   #27
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I like that little part in chpt. 23 where Tuor, Túrin's cousin, actually sees Túrin go by past the Pools of Ivrin, but they don't speak, and they don't know who the other person is. They were first cousins, but never met each other. They would have been quite a team together!

I agree with the people that say Túrin's pride caused a lot of his troubles, and I think it's good to compare Túrin to his cousin Tuor, and compare the choices they made early on, and what motivated them (pride, all too often, in Túrin's case) and where their choices led them. Tuor seems able to show some restraint, but Túrin just looses it when he gets angry. But Tuor was raised by the Elves pretty much from birth, where Túrin was sent from his mother and sister, whom he loved, to Thingol's court. Yet Tuor was captured and enslaved by the Easterlings, and this didn't seem to damage his heart in the way Túrin's heart was damaged ...

Yes, Beleg is cool! His death was a tragedy
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Old 03-16-2004, 01:35 PM   #28
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Quote:
origionally posted by Rian
Yes, Beleg is cool! His death was a tragedy
I really dig the way Tolkien describes his death, however, its very powerful, with the lightning and all. Reminds me of Edgar Allan Poe, the way the dash of lightning lit Belegs face, with Turin towering over him. Very cool (however sad).

I think the difference between Turin and Tuor was that Tuor never really knew his father, so he never got a chance to really get fired up about anything. His mom died early too (if I remember correctly). He was a ramblin' man (like Hank Williams Jr.), he seemed to delight in the road, and in exploring things and admiring their beauty (run on sentence).
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Old 03-16-2004, 02:50 PM   #29
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Ihink the real difference is that Turin learned excessive and self destructive pride from his mother.
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Old 03-16-2004, 06:02 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beor
His mom died early too (if I remember correctly).
Yes, poor R*an died right after he was born - she went looking for Huor and "laid her down and died" on the Haudh-en-Ndengin (the "Mound of the Slain" from the Nirnaeth).

I think Tuor had plenty of fire - I love the account of the FOG ... but this is too off-topic, I'll wait for chpt. 23.

I agree with you, Lefty - I think he got the pride mostly from his mother. I just want to bop her on the head sometimes when I read the Narn! I wonder how much came from Hurin? Hurin was proud, but in a better sense than Morwen was, IMO.
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"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

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Old 03-21-2004, 08:43 PM   #31
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I agree with you, Lefty - I think he got the pride mostly from his mother. I just want to bop her on the head sometimes when I read the Narn! I wonder how much came from Hurin? Hurin was proud, but in a better sense than Morwen was, IMO.
But you forget that although Morwen was very proud, I think she is the one of the characters of the Silmarillion that had the most estel of all. Against all odds and reason, she waited and waited for her husband, and she was not conquered.

Also we have the Curse of Túrin towards Menegroth, that came to happen in our next chapter.
Quote:
From theNarn
"Can I not, can I not, Mablung?" cried Túrin. "But why no! For see, I am blind! Did you not know? Blind, blind, groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth! Therefore leave me! Go, go! Go back to Doriath, and may winter shrivel it! A curse upon Menegroth! And a curse on your errand. This only was wanting. Now comes the night!"
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 03-22-2004, 07:26 AM   #32
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There is nothing wrong in itself with being proud. It is only hurtful when pride becomes a hinder against doing the right thing. Morwen's fault was imo to reject Melian's offer of coming to Doriath and stay there together with her son. But this she did not do out of pride only, but also because she still hoped for Húrin to return, knowing in her heart that he was not dead.

With all this talk about Túrin's pride, I'd like to highlight his other qualities as well, as it is described in this passage from UT, the Narn:
Quote:
He was dark-haired as his mother, and promised to be like her in mood also; for he was not merry, and spoke little, though he learned to speak early and ever seemed older than his years. Túrin was slow to forget injustice or mockery; but the fire of his father was also in him, and he could be sudden and fierce. Yet he was quick to pity, and the hurts or sadness of living things might move him to tears; and he was like his father in this also, for Morwen was stern with others as with herself.
As a boy already Túrin was generous and had care for others, which is shown in the Narn by the beautiful account of the friendship between him and the crippled Sador.
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Old 03-22-2004, 01:35 PM   #33
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Yes, I like that little story of Turin and Sador.
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"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

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Old 03-23-2004, 12:47 PM   #34
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I agree with Arty that too much blame has been put on Túrin's pride.

Who met Túrin that did not like him? Thingol, Orodreth, Beleg, Gwindor, the outlaws, Mîm, Finduilas, Niniel, Manthor (from the wanderings). Very different persons, yet they all loved Túrin.

He had to be a very good mate, if the curse had not been over his head.
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
I agree with Arty that too much blame has been put on Túrin's pride.
Actions have consequences. There were lots of things that went bad in Túrin's life. He had to take responsability for his actions. There were things that he was not aware of, there were things that he was.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 04-01-2004, 05:09 PM   #36
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I've never been a big Túrin fan, because I think he DID let his pride control him too much, but I must say I just re-read the UT version of the Narn and came out with a little more compassion for him.

It was also interesting (and sad) that it was by the actions of his mother, Morwen (who seems to have even MORE pride), that "the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven", when she refused to "humble her pride" to be the alms-guest of Thingol. And this was thru denying Húrin's counsel - "Therefore the voice of Húrin, or the memory of his voice, was denied, and the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven."
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"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

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Old 04-23-2014, 10:00 PM   #37
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I just happened to pick up the Silmarillion today - and started (re-)reading this chapter. I couldn't BELIEVE how much happened every two pages. This story is just PACKED!!! I had forgotten - or had not realized before.
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:13 AM   #38
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With discussing Thingol of late and how he started to fall from grace I became aware I had missed a rather important development with him in this chapter. Going by how he rather disliked Men before he got one as son-in-law, he really became convertred by the time Túrin came around.

He takes Túrin as his foster-son, now that is nothing to sneeze at, certainly not because he was king. This isn't just grudging sympathy for these base mortals, this is as much respect as he would give to an Eldar noble. And he doesn't drop him the moment if becomes uncomfortable with the whole Saeros-business.

He actually was improving!
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