Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > The Silmarillion > The Silmarillion Project
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-17-2004, 01:14 PM   #41
Rían
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Rían's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
Re: warning

Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Nolodil will show up sonner or later to tell you that BoLT is a different existance than Middle Earth.
Does Nolendil say that, too? I thought it was just Michael Martinez.

Yes, it's different, but c'mon, they are definitely connected/related.


Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Fire breath is a big problem.....
A bit of an understatement ... but yes, it IS directional.
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?*

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Rían is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2004, 02:45 PM   #42
Beor
founder of the color blue
 
Beor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
Gimli

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
LOL! But aren't you a Man? Then you wouldn't be staying for long in Mandos' halls anyway.
Well, I might be able to trick him by using big words and saying "shall", and telling stories about the waters of Awakening, and the trip to Valinor, and by looking out the window, and saying "I used to live right there", and pointing to Formeos or something. But you're right, I'd get the boot soon enough.

Fire breath is a big problem, but usually some toothpaste and a toothbrush can get rid of it, or some listerine

Quote:
Nolodil will show up sooner or later and tell you that BoLT is a different existance than Middle-earth
Yeah, but the BoLT version of Gondolin is a heck of a lot more Rockin' than the brief glimpse one gets in the Sil.
__________________
Well, there it is.
Beor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2004, 02:46 PM   #43
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
"3. Rate JRRT’s military operational and strategic sense, from how He describes the preliminaries to the battle, its approaches, and development"

It appears to me that he has a very solid grasp of strategy. The prelimaries and, approaches, and plans of the Noldor are clearly dictated by the geography and ground and by the exterior position. All I could add there is that a reserve (Turgons Host would fit) should advance to the north face of Dorthonian to protect against Morgoths obviously strategy of pushing the the Noldorin hosts apart. Morgoths strategy is equally dictated by his cirumstances of central position. With a discipline advance (rather than Fingon being drawn out into rapid pursuit uncoordinated with Maedhros) or with Maedhros not alowing hiself to be delayed, and with appropriate flank guards on both wings, Morgoth would have been readily defeated, even against Uldor's trechery and the other forces from the east.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola
Older, richer, and wiser than you
"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2004, 02:38 PM   #44
Tuor of Gondolin
Elf Lord
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
The Wars of Beleriand illustrate the consequences of two serious mistakes, one by Feanor and one by the Valar. Feanor's was, of course, the kin slaying, without which there would not have been the Curse of Mandos (with its reference to treachery, negating the wfforts of the elves). The other error was bringing the elves to Aman. Valar assistance to elves staying in Middle-earth, or a united Noldor without the kinslaying and ship burning incidents would in either case have led to a resistance to Morgoth which could well have contained him, albeit not finally defeating him. Perhaps leading to his withdrawing to Eastern/Central Middle-earth. Therefore, Maedhros' tactical plans were sound and could well have worked, but were doomed by his daddy's rash actions, which is what ticked off Doriath to withhold support. (Feanor rather reminds you of observations of Sonny Corleone by Sollozzo in The Godfather I "You can't do business with that hothead."
__________________
Democrat for Kerry-Edwards!

Take Back America

Aure entuluva!

Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin : 02-19-2004 at 02:47 PM.
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2004, 09:24 AM   #45
Beor
founder of the color blue
 
Beor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
Gimli

Yeah, but dont you think that they were held too much by doom? All they would have to do is swallow their pride, and realise that they have a common enemy. Who cares if Feanor killed a bunch of Teleri in Aman a few hundred years ago? Maedhros is trying to rally everyone now, so put the kinslaying behind you for now and be a man (elf). The doom of Mandos just predicted the pride of the elves and men. He might not even have known for sure what was going to happen, he just had to know that they were stubborn and unwilling to change their course. A little cooperation is all that they needed.

i agree with the elves to Aman thing though. Foolish Valar.

The Godfather, or maybe Tony Montana, that guy got fired up. (except Feanor didnt snort lines of Cocaine an inch thich and a foot long)(as far as I know)
__________________
Well, there it is.
Beor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2004, 12:00 PM   #46
Maedhros
The Tall
 
Maedhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
Quote:
The other error was bringing the elves to Aman.
I think that the error was not that, but what happened to the event that led to the Valar to feel that ME was not safe for the Elves.
From Morgoth's Ring: Converse of Manwë and Eru
Quote:
There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of M*riel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it (cf. LQ §20, p. 161: 'And Manwë said to the Valar: "This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor." Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife').
Quote:
It appears to me that he has a very solid grasp of strategy. The prelimaries and, approaches, and plans of the Noldor are clearly dictated by the geography and ground and by the exterior position. All I could add there is that a reserve (Turgons Host would fit) should advance to the north face of Dorthonian to protect against Morgoths obviously strategy of pushing the the Noldorin hosts apart. Morgoths strategy is equally dictated by his cirumstances of central position. With a discipline advance (rather than Fingon being drawn out into rapid pursuit uncoordinated with Maedhros) or with Maedhros not alowing hiself to be delayed, and with appropriate flank guards on both wings, Morgoth would have been readily defeated, even against Uldor's trechery and the other forces from the east.
In principle I agree with this but, regardless of everything, I think that Maedhros disregarded Sun Tzu: The Art of War most important principle:
Quote:
paraprasing
You do not go to war to see if you are going to win, you win first and then you go to war.
It always seemed to me that Maedhros went to war with the hope of beating Morgoth's forces, while Morgoth planed ahead and won the war before actually fighting it with the aid of his cunning.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
Maedhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2004, 05:39 PM   #47
Rían
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Rían's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
(Feanor rather reminds you of observations of Sonny Corleone by Sollozzo in The Godfather I "You can't do business with that hothead."
ROTFL!
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?*

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Rían is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2004, 07:04 AM   #48
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
2. How does word reach Turgon (which must have included secret operational and timing information)? Do he and Fingon have a sort of dialog where Fingon gets answers back?
I think there must have been some communication of Turgon and the world outside Gondolin. The Eagles could provide some info on troop movements and such but I don't think they carried messages. But I believe I read somewhere that at one point Turgon sent messengers to Cirdan, in that prospect he might have sent out some Elves to scout or gather intelligence as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
6. Try to think up effective tactics for the good guys to use against mature dragons.
I think there is very little that helps against mature dragons. One on one combat will probably end in a few Elf-kebabs. Either they would have had to use heavy war-engines (which they don't seem to use in their army at all) or trickery and traps. I'm thinking of luring the dragon in hidden pits from where it can't get out and then pelt it with steel and rock. Of course that depends on the terrain where you're fighting.


Quote:
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I always thought of the High Kingship as more than a title, but I see your point, and Turgon was an absolute 'do nothing' High King because of Gondolin. Gil-galad seemed much more kingly in that position, more active under that title. I think had a greater host from Nargothrond been in this battle, the Elves may have won the day in spite of the treachery of Men.
Now, now, I don't think that comparison is entirely fair. When Turgon became High King there wasn't really much to be High King of. Most Elven realms -if they managed to maintain themselves- were hard pushed and scattered. Nearly every leader was dead. Gil-galad lived in an easier time IMO and the Elves were more united then. The constant threat of treachery from their own kin was gone after the re-imprisonment of Morgoth and Gil-galad had time to rebuild his realm before the war with Sauron.
__________________
We are not things.
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2004, 06:50 AM   #49
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Quote:
Originally posted by Beor
Yeah, but the BoLT version of Gondolin is a heck of a lot more Rockin' than the brief glimpse one gets in the Sil.
You can say that again! I've just been re-reading most of Tuor's story and the Fall of Gondolin, and it's superb!

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
It always seemed to me that Maedhros went to war with the hope of beating Morgoth's forces,...
I wonder if Maedhros' actions had been different if Fëanor his father had told him of his foreknowledge at the hour of his death:
Quote:
And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them;...
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.

Last edited by Artanis : 03-22-2004 at 06:51 AM.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2005, 10:38 PM   #50
Olmer
Elf Lord
 
Olmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artanis
The strength of Nargothrond and Doriath would probably have changed the outcome of the battle.
It probably would, but never did, because on the wars they were building their wealth and this why they did not want to participate in previous Wars.

And now, my friends, explain to me what the heck Maedhros promised to Dwarve's King to make them change their viewpoint?
Was it goodwill or some kind of agreement? Because the way they left the battlefield rase some questions.
Olmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2018, 08:30 AM   #51
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
This chapter really reminded me how Fëanor and his sons really are poor leadership material. While Maedhros' initiative is laudable, he goes about it again rather poorly. Not in the least by driving away the potential allies of Doriath just when he is starting to gather forces. Everything they do is for selfish reasons, nowhere in their actions can I see something for the good of his people. Sometimes I feel the Oath is just an excuse to misbehave.

I was wondering what influence Uldor must have had over Maedhros to keep him from fighting for four days, even while by then the fact that Fingon had engaged the enemy and the failure of their previous strategy must have been obvious. But then I thought that Maedhros probably didn't have too many Eldar still following him, after the losses from the Dagor Bragollach and the poor conduct of his brothers, and that for any significant number of troops he had no other choice than to rely heavily on Men.

The one good call he made was involving the Dwarves. It's a shame that none of the other Eldar could apparently see their worth. They saw off Glaurung in a way none of the Eldar could have matched.

Although I judge the loss of Doriath's forces in this endeavour is not just at the Sons of Fëanor's door. Thingol has a lot to answer for as well. I can understand not wanting to yield anything after the Fëanoreans rather rude and tactless demand, but Melian did counsel him to give up the silmaril and she had never failed him yet. He ignored her advise for similar selfish reasons and look where it would get him, and the rest of Doriath, for that matter.

Interesting though, that from the Falas under Cirdan, forces were sent. Considering Cirdan had recognized Thingol as lord before the arrival of the Noldor, one would expect Cirdan receiving orders from Thingol to abstain from the fight. But this doesn't seem the case. I wonder whether the Falas gained more independance when Doriath closed it borders and Finrod's realm was established between that of Thingol and Cirdan.
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Harry Potter Discussion Project/Sign Up jammi567 Harry Potter 157 10-06-2011 06:27 PM
One Thousand and One Knights hectorberlioz General Messages 160 04-06-2007 04:03 AM
The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 1, A Long-expected Party cassiopeia LOTR Discussion Project 69 01-27-2005 05:28 PM
The Lord of the Rings Discussion Project: Chapter 5 and Chapter 6 jerseydevil LOTR Discussion Project 30 08-09-2004 07:00 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail