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Old 08-26-2003, 10:49 PM   #21
Lefty Scaevola
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Of course how much of it is just a tale spun by Men to explain their mortality.
Mostly, I would wager, with the only truth in it being Morgoths domination over most men.
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Old 08-27-2003, 02:19 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Of course how much of it is just a tale spun by Men to explain their mortality. Andreth says that they do not remember when there was not death. Beor tells Finrod a similiar account as well, in the Silmarillion.
Agree with Lefty. I do not trust Andreth when she tells this story. To me it seems like a story made up by Men to fit their fear of death, or maybe partly suggested to them by Morgoth himself. I do not think that Iluvatar shortened their lifespan as a special action. It wasn't Morgoth either, I agree with Finrod when he doesn't believe that Morgoth had the power to do such a thing (even if Tolkien explored the possibility). From the very beginning Iluvatar made Men's nature in such a way that they would have longer lifespans if they followed the light, and shorter lifespans if they did the opposite, imo.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:35 AM   #23
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I agree as well. As a matteroffact, I read in the notes of the Athrabeth where CT points out that Finrod's view is the most likely, because had Men been made immortal, they would not have been Men, they would have been Elves. There would have then been no great differences in fate or nature of the two races, which IMO would have made for a rather boring story.
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Old 08-27-2003, 04:24 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Fat middle
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There was little peril in the lands and hills; and there new things, devised long ages before in the thought of Yavanna and sown as seed in the dark, came at last to their budding and their bloom. West, North, and South the children of Men spread and wandered, and their joy was the joy of the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf is green.
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I love it when the Professor turns lyrical Reading this paragraph I’ve realized that in this moment the Ents wake up too. I’ve always thought that they were older than men, but it seems that we waked up together.
It's indeed a very pretty quote. I never thought about Ents and Men waking up together. Though I don't think they actually met at that time. I have this memory of Treebeard telling how the Elves taught the Ents to speak when they awoke. It would seem the Ents met the Elves before they met Men.

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Those that seem weakest are actually mightiest.
To find strength in weakness fits IMO very well with how Iluvatar would ultimately turn evil deeds into good things. To find this sort of thoughts in Tolkien's writing proves to me he's still the greatest and unbeaten.
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Old 09-03-2003, 09:59 PM   #25
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I’m particularly intrigued by “the Self-cursed”. Any thoughts?
Perhaps the usage of the word 'Cursed' is not what you might at first have thought?

Think about it: it was men that feared and hated death, so perhaps "Curse my Mortality! Curse me for being mortal!" is the implication. Hmmm?

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Michael Martinez suggests in Parma Endorion that Men could learn elements of the tongues of that people that passed to human languages, and also they could learn how to play simple musical instruments such as harps and flutes. I don’t know where did he get that idea. Has anybody heard that before?
I would presume that men could learn any skills of Tongue and Music that the elves were willing to to teach, although they wouldn't have been as adept. After all, the elves themselves borrowed from the Valarin tongue.

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Here and in Andreth’s words in the Athrabeth we see that Valar doesn’t seem much concerned with men. In Myths Transformed, Tolkien says something about the estrangement and resentment that Men felt towards the Valar passing to the traditions on the Silmarillion in Númenor. But, actually, should Men feel any “religious link” towards the Valar as the Eldar seem to have?
The Valar had foolishly withdrawn from Middle Earth and hidden away, and chosen to let Melkor do as he would. I don't see any special reason why Men should revere them.

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Very true. Perhaps I should have clarified my point of view. When I analyze ME stories I like to stick to the idea that Tolkien is a mere transcriber. I think that's how he wanted us to read them. Therefore I try to search for other reasons to the existence of different traditions (wherever the only explanation is what you've said, it should be marked as a fault of the final version).
That's a very good road to take, however, there are a number of places where it can't be used, and the final version should NOT be disregarded. The version that should be taken is the version that takes the least amount of work to make fit with the story. IMHO

An evident example is that tolkien originally envisioned the Balrogs as armored cavalry numbering in the tens of thousands. That's obviously not what we see in the LOTR, which is the 'final version' on the subject.

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An interesting thought - for after all, an intelligent grown-up can inflict much more suffering and damage on those around him/her than a very young child.
Right- It's Dr. Lector that is really scary, not the stupid murderer who gets caught right away.

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I do not think that Iluvatar shortened their lifespan as a special action. It wasn't Morgoth either, I agree with Finrod when he doesn't believe that Morgoth had the power to do such a thing (even if Tolkien explored the possibility). From the very beginning Iluvatar made Men's nature in such a way that they would have longer lifespans if they followed the light, and shorter lifespans if they did the opposite, imo.
So goodness is like... Nutrition? Or proper medical care? It would make sense that people who lived as they were created to live would live longer (less undue wear and tear!)
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Old 09-05-2003, 09:34 AM   #26
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Originally posted by Wayfarer
So goodness is like... Nutrition? Or proper medical care?
Not goodness, but light, faith in Iluvatar and freedom from the fear of death.
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Old 09-08-2003, 04:27 PM   #27
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Hmm... I always got the impression that the two were interchangeable. It's the good numenoreans that follow the light and are willing to die. It's the bad ones that are afraid of death.
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Old 09-08-2003, 09:01 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel

To find strength in weakness fits IMO very well with how Iluvatar would ultimately turn evil deeds into good things. To find this sort of thoughts in Tolkien's writing proves to me he's still the greatest and unbeaten.
This is also one of the themes of LotR: the mighty of the Earth are helpless before the power of Sauron and the Ring, and the little Hobbits destroy both. Of course, this has a Scriptural basis: "The last shall be first."
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