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Old 02-12-2004, 03:22 PM   #21
Lefty Scaevola
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I have suspected that the relative lack of precognition among men, other than those descended from elves is one part of the gift of man: that their spirits are freer of fate/doom and to make their way independently in the world. It would make good sense that thoses more bound by fate, are better able to forsee it. Note also that Huor, and espciially his son Tour are so closely bound to the Noldor and their fate, perhaps giving them a leg up in the prophecy dept.

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Old 02-13-2004, 02:09 PM   #22
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Gimli

Thats true, and a very good point, but it could also be that Ulmo had something to do with Huor's prophecy at this time. Ulmo set the whole thing (with Turgon and Tuor) up before there was a Gondolin, and he was speaking through Tuor's mouth when they talked to Echtilon (I cant spell well, and dont have the books near me) and then again to Turgon. Maybe Ulmo gave Huor some foresight here.
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Old 02-13-2004, 02:39 PM   #23
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Huor was next to the waters of the Rivil and he Sirion when he made his prophecy
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:52 AM   #24
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I just read the latest account that JRRT wrote of the Fifth Battle (if I understand CRT right), and there it is Fingon who is restraining his captains from attacking too soon, not Húrin. I like that much better, I had problems with Fingon as a rash hothead forgetting his and Maedhros' plan and ignoring all his knowledge and experience of Morgoth.
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Old 02-14-2004, 07:08 AM   #25
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Where can that account be found? Don't think I've heard of it.
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Old 02-14-2004, 07:32 AM   #26
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HoME 11, The Grey Annals, Note 2: A further account of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.
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Old 02-14-2004, 07:33 AM   #27
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Thanks. I'll check it out.
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Old 02-14-2004, 02:24 PM   #28
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Something I am wondering is; why couldn't Fingon as High King order Nargothrond to be more active in this battle? Although Nargothrond was a kingdom to itself, it was still answerable to Hithlum, wasn't it?
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Old 02-14-2004, 02:42 PM   #29
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Gimli

I would imagine, but I think the Elves didnt want to be too pushy with their own kind. There were already so many hatreds among them (the sons of F and Doriath, Nagothrond and the C brothers), that I think that Fingon would be wary to really put out any orders to the other Kingdoms.

Also, Beleriand seemed to run itself like seperate nations, the whole High King thing seemed to me to be more of a title than a power (except you get to die an incredible death in battle!)
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Old 02-14-2004, 02:49 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beor
I would imagine, but I think the Elves didnt want to be too pushy with their own kind. There were already so many hatreds among them (the sons of F and Doriath, Nagothrond and the C brothers), that I think that Fingon would be wary to really put out any orders to the other Kingdoms.

Also, Beleriand seemed to run itself like seperate nations, the whole High King thing seemed to me to be more of a title than a power (except you get to die an incredible death in battle!)
I always thought of the High Kingship as more than a title, but I see your point, and Turgon was an absolute 'do nothing' High King because of Gondolin. Gil-galad seemed much more kingly in that position, more active under that title. I think had a greater host from Nargothrond been in this battle, the Elves may have won the day in spite of the treachery of Men.
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Old 02-14-2004, 03:02 PM   #31
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Gimli

I definitely agree, if they had Nargothrond and Doriath as well, they would have won the day. He says that Angband was emptied, which means that if they could defeat the army on the field, all they would have to do is go after Morgoth, and they would have victory. The elves hold too may grudges.

Gil-Galad was definitely a good high king, and that brings to mind also, that Cirdan could have floated up the Sirion and held himself in reserve at in the Fens of Serech until needed. Fresh troops can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.
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Old 02-15-2004, 08:06 PM   #32
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The Elves of the Falas (Cirdan) did send an army which was included in Fingon's host.
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Old 02-16-2004, 01:37 PM   #33
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"6. Try to think up effective tactics for the good guys to use against mature dragons."

Dragons present 4 large tactical/techological problems

Strong armor
Fire breath
BIG, and repulsvie
strong magic/spells

The last will not be two difficult for the many of the top Noldor, because they are no slouchs in magic/spells themselves, and even non magic users seems to avoid much of it by avoiding eye contact. It it likely the dragon can only deal with one opponent by this means at a time
The great engineers of the Noldor can surely develope armor piercing weapons, both projectile and melee. If a dwarf can hack deep enough with an axe to distress a dragon, then Noldor can make personnal crossbow like weapons to seriously hurt one, and mobile balistae like ones to to put it out of action. They would already unterstand the metallury and design of weapon points and edges for use against armor. And even non technitians can grasp the basic of designing arrows, bolts, and balista bolts to maximise armor penetration. The Balistae would have to be very mobile on the battlefield to be able to get to the dragon, but that can readily be done as well: big wheels, lots of horses. Armor piercing tips would already be available for battle lances.
Big & smelly: Horses to operate near the dragon would have to be specially tarined and conditioned not to panic, but that seems to be not too diffucult for the Elves, who how great success with training and controlling them, and maintaining and emontinal and mental contact with them which could protect them.
Fire breath is a big problem, but if the dwarvs of Belegost could handele it, the Noldor caould do so better, with better technology, training, and their inherent resistance to bodily ill and harm. Also the breath is directional and can not go everywhere at once, and is likely exhaustable on the battlefield.

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Old 02-16-2004, 01:47 PM   #34
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I would suggest that two or more special mobile dragons fighting units be formed. They would be mounted and horse drawn. They would have crossbow, balistae, and heavy knights that would charge home with armor piercing battle lances (think of all the momentum and kinetic energy of a large warhorse behind a well designed hardened lance tip and reinforced lance shaft; spitted dragon time if you can drive it home). they, particularly the knights and their mounts, would near special gear to deal with flame. They would neeed a high degree of training including the animals, to deal with the terror of the dragon.
Groups of mounted crossbowmen would have to be dispersed with the rest of the host to help contain and slow down the dragon while the dragon slayers approach and manuver. The same units would also be useful for dealing with Balrogs and large trolls.
The killing tactic would be circling harrasment by the crossbows to distract and pin the drangons while the ballistae or knights manuver for the kill from multiple sides. This would require the support of more regular troops to clear away most other dark troops away from the dragon before the slayers close in.

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Old 02-16-2004, 02:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
The Elves of the Falas (Cirdan) did send an army which was included in Fingon's host.
You're right, sorry.
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Old 02-16-2004, 06:25 PM   #36
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Quote:
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the C brothers.... (except you get to die an incredible death in battle!)
LOL!!

Re fighting dragons - I always liked the account in the FoGondolin how Rog and the people of the Hammer of Wrath just went for broke against the Balrogs and dragons - they didn't even try to "win back" to the city, they just decided to stand and fight to the end, like Hurin, because (quoting Rog) - "Who now shall fear the Balrogs for all their terror? See before us the accursed ones who for ages have tormented the children of the Noldoli, and who now set a fire at our backs with their shooting. Come ye of the Hammer of Wrath and we will smite them for their evil."

Also the same attitude was seen so beautifully in ROTK with Duilin of Morthond and his brother fighting the mumakil, "leading their bowmen close to shoot at the eyes of the monsters." I'm sure they knew they would pay the ultimate price, but it had to be done to give others a chance.
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Old 02-17-2004, 07:38 AM   #37
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Gimli

I love the combat of Rog and his people. Its one of my favorite little battles in the whole Middle-Earth parade. Rog's people must have been berserkers, but elvish ones. I like how he describes the hammers. Hammers are cool. I would have liked to fight with Rog, even though I wouldnt be posting here right now (unless Mandos hooked up the internet to his halls)
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Old 02-17-2004, 11:20 AM   #38
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Gandalf warning

Nolendil will show up sonner or later to tell you that BoLT is a different existance than Middle Earth.

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Old 02-17-2004, 11:28 AM   #39
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Quote:
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(unless Mandos hooked up the internet to his halls)
LOL! But aren't you a Man? Then you wouldn't be staying for long in Mandos' halls anyway.
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Old 02-17-2004, 01:11 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beor
I would have liked to fight with Rog, even though I wouldnt be posting here right now (unless Mandos hooked up the internet to his halls)
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