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Old 12-01-2003, 03:33 AM   #21
Artanis
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Originally posted by Wayfarer
Entitled to power by relation? You go down a dangerous road with that reasoning.
What? Are you saying that kingship among the Elves wasn't inherited? Being the heir of the throne of Gondolin would put Maeglin in a respected position, don't you think?
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The very fact that Maeglin did desire that sort of power says to me that he was already twisted and corrupt. The desire for power and domination is from Melkor rather than any good elven impulse.
That's one way to see it. Personally I don't think Maeglin was corrupted before his captivity by Morgoth. He just had his weaknesses, which Morgoth knew how to turn to his account.
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Old 12-06-2003, 01:29 AM   #22
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I think Aredhel needed to read a book called: "Men who hate women, and the women who love them." Eol was extremely controlling. Just reading the part pertaining to their relationship made me feel like I was suffocating. I really felt sorry for Aredhel.
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Old 12-06-2003, 01:35 AM   #23
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It was inherited, and it wasn't. :P

Originally, remember, the three (four?) kings of the elves- Ingwe, Finwe, Olwe, and Elwe, were originally appointed as leaders, due to the merit of having gone to valinor, and presumably they were exceptional to be chosen for that embassy.

Now notice that the various leaders of the elven people almost always follow that general formula- they're the most skilled, most revered, most loved. The fact that elven society works on a merit, rather than a relational, basis, is made clear by the fact that Tuor, a non elf, and Turin, a non elf, both rose to be higher in status than Maeglin and Gwindor, in the councils of the kingdom. They're accomplishments were obviously worth more than their ancestry.

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That's one way to see it. Personally I don't think Maeglin was corrupted before his captivity by Morgoth. He just had his weaknesses, which Morgoth knew how to turn to his account.
Erm... The guy lusted after his close relative. He was messed up when morgoth met him.
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Old 12-06-2003, 05:18 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Wayfarer
Originally, remember, the three (four?) kings of the elves- Ingwe, Finwe, Olwe, and Elwe, were originally appointed as leaders, due to the merit of having gone to valinor, and presumably they were exceptional to be chosen for that embassy.
Well, that's a natural exception because they were the first kings.

Nothing of what you say can deny the fact that kingship was inherited, and that Maeglin would be considered as Turgon's heir.
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Old 12-07-2003, 03:35 PM   #25
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No, he wouldn't have.

You're thinking in human. Bad girl. In a society composed entirely of immortals, the idea of having a 'heir' is ridiculous.

And there is a great deal of evidence that all kingship, or at least all leadership, was based on individual merit. Maeglin was not the next in line for the kingship- Tuor was.

The fact that talanted parents tend to have talanted children means that, more often than not, the leadership will stay within the most exceptional family in the kingdom. But exceptional individuals were always given their due. Look at how much influence Celegorm and Curufin had in Nargothrond- certainly a great deal, and yet neither was king despite the fact that they were closer to Finwe than Finrod or Orodreth were.

It was only later, among the mortal Numenoreans, that lines of succession began to matter.
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Old 12-07-2003, 06:43 PM   #26
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Originally posted by Wayfarer
You're thinking in human. Bad girl. In a society composed entirely of immortals, the idea of having a 'heir' is ridiculous.
I may be a bad girl but my ideas are not ridiculous. The Elves could die too. In fact all the Elvish kings and princes in Middle Earth died in the end, didn't they.
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Maeglin was not the next in line for the kingship- Tuor was.
I don't think Tuor would be entitled to the kingship. Is it enough to marry the king's daughter? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Would Beren have been next in line for the kingship in Doriath if he hadn't died? I doubt it. But Eärendil would be Turgon's heir. So I agree that Maeglin looked upon Tuor as an enemy and rival, both with the king and his daughter.
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Look at how much influence Celegorm and Curufin had in Nargothrond- certainly a great deal, and yet neither was king despite the fact that they were closer to Finwe than Finrod or Orodreth were.
The inheritance of the kingship in Nargothrond had nothing to do with Finwë. When Finrod died, Orodreth became king in Nargothrond because Angrod and Aegnor were also dead, and Orodreth was Angrod's son. Bloodline. If bloodline had nothing to say, I'm sure they could have found a better suited king than Orodreth. He was too weak, and let Celegorm and Curufin get too much influence.
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Old 12-07-2003, 10:21 PM   #27
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I may be a bad girl but my ideas are not ridiculous. The Elves could die too. In fact all the Elvish kings and princes in Middle Earth died in the end, didn't they.
But they didn't /stay/ dead, now did they?

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I don't think Tuor would be entitled to the kingship. Is it enough to marry the king's daughter? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Would Beren have been next in line for the kingship in Doriath if he hadn't died? I doubt it. But Eärendil would be Turgon's heir. So I agree that Maeglin looked upon Tuor as an enemy and rival, both with the king and his daughter.
That's what I dissagree with you about- the idea that 'entitlement' somehow plays a role. The fact is that not only was Tuor the second in command to Turgon from almost his first days in Gondolin, but it was he that the Gondolindrim followed when they fled their city, and it was he that ruled them afterwards. Beren, also, became a ruler of elves after he was returned to life.

Just something of note: Tuor's child was Elwing, Earendil's mother. Dior, Beren's son, was Earendil's father. So if human laws of succession did apply, Earendil would have been in line for the position of High King.

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The inheritance of the kingship in Nargothrond had nothing to do with Finwë. When Finrod died, Orodreth became king in Nargothrond because Angrod and Aegnor were also dead, and Orodreth was Angrod's son. Bloodline. If bloodline had nothing to say, I'm sure they could have found a better suited king than Orodreth. He was too weak, and let Celegorm and Curufin get too much influence.
Orodreth was Angrod's son, who was Finrod's son, who was Fingolfin's son, who was Finwe's son, who was Lord of the Noldor in Aman.
Celegorm and Curufin were Feanor's sons, who was Finwe's son.

And since all the great kings of the Noldor were descended from Finwe, if bloodline was what mattered then the sons of Feanor would have had primacy.

And, although the throne is occasionnally, inherited, there are no clear lines of descent. Which means that blood probably isn't a deciding factor.
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:32 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wayfarer
You're thinking in human. Bad girl. In a society composed entirely of immortals, the idea of having a 'heir' is ridiculous.
There was the example of NoloFinwe in Tirion, when Finwe and KuruFinwe were in exile in Formenos.
The subject of Heirship come up of coures more often among the Elves in middle earth, where with common warfare, King, being war leaders, get killed, and usually do return to Middle Earth, even after being re-embodied. Note this may be why that such heirship seemed to be male dominated. While male and female Quendi (or is it just among Eldar) are somewhat coeval, war is predominately a male business among them.

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Old 12-08-2003, 05:14 AM   #29
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Originally posted by Wayfarer
But they didn't /stay/ dead, now did they?
Perhaps not. We don't really know, except in the case of Findaráto. But they never returned to their kingdoms, now did they?
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That's what I dissagree with you about- the idea that 'entitlement' somehow plays a role. The fact is that not only was Tuor the second in command to Turgon from almost his first days in Gondolin, but it was he that the Gondolindrim followed when they fled their city, and it was he that ruled them afterwards. Beren, also, became a ruler of elves after he was returned to life.
Tuor was indeed popular, and he had the king's favour, but the same thing could be said about Maeglin, and imo he had the advantage of his kinship with the king, before Tuor married Idril. And of course they followed Tuor after the fall of Gondolin. Both Turgon and Maeglin were dead, and Eärendil was only 7 years old.

Disagreeing is good, it leads to discussions like this one.
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Just something of note: Tuor's child was Elwing, Earendil's mother. Dior, Beren's son, was Earendil's father. So if human laws of succession did apply, Earendil would have been in line for the position of High King.
Now you're typing faster than you're thinking. Elwing was the wife of Eärendil, and she was descended from Thingol via Luthien and then Dior. But the question of the High Kingship is interesting. By the new genealogy of Ereinion Gil-Galad as son of Orodreth instead of Fingon, Eärendil might be considered High King after the death of Turgon. But then maybe Gil-Galad would have preferance before Eärendil because he was a descendant from Finwë through males only. I'm not sure.
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And since all the great kings of the Noldor were descended from Finwe, if bloodline was what mattered then the sons of Feanor would have had primacy.
No, not in the kingdom of Nargothrond, which Finrod established.
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Old 12-08-2003, 08:51 AM   #30
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"He takes her to wife. It seems that aside from the enchantments used to get her there that she willingly stayed and married him."
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When rereading through the passage again concerning whether Aredhel was forced to stay or not with Eol, I tend to think that there was some enchantments and coercion in effect. At one point it says,

"and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find her ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood."

It later mentions how she was very weary after her long travels. In the next paragraph, it mentions that "It is not said that Aredhal was wholly unwilling"

To me, wholly unwilling means that yes a part of her may have actually desired to stay, but for the most part she was there due to subterfuge and enchantments. If not, I am not sure why Tolkien would have thrown the words wholly unwilling in there. Just a thought.
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:08 AM   #31
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I think that the "not wholly unwilling" phrase may be also looked at by its implied converse: she was also "not wholly willing," which implies some element of coercion. Eöl was exactly equivalent to those guys that stalk their estranged wives and girlfriends.
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:36 AM   #32
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Wayfarer: And since all the great kings of the Noldor were descended from Finwe, if bloodline was what mattered then the sons of Feanor would have had primacy.
Maedhros relinquished the Feanorians' right to the High Kingship to Fingolfin, didn't he?
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Old 12-29-2003, 06:27 AM   #33
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Maedhros relinquished the Feanorians' right to the High Kingship to Fingolfin, didn't he?
Yes he did. Against the will of some of his brothers.
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:26 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Wayfarer
Erm... The guy lusted after his close relative. He was messed up when morgoth met him.
True, but it wasn't as if they had grown up together. I think the fact that Maeglin was never allowed to see his relatives sort of made him not used to the idea. It also says that he loved her without hope. I don't think he got seriously messed up in the head until Tuor showed up, married Idril and succeeded him as "heir to the throne" and everyone's favorite. Not that Tuor didn't deserve it more, I'm sure he did. I just think Maeglin had a difficult time seeing it that way.
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Idril is the only sane one, IMO, and mistrusts Maeglin, all the others think he's great. He appears loyal, brave and useful to the kingdom. Apparently having the ability to see through a facade allows him to be very adept at putting one up himself.
It might not have been a facade, though. What's to say that Maeglin isn't really that way? (at first, anyway). Sure, he wanted to rule the place in the event something happened to Turgon, but I don't think his motives were corrupt; I just think he thought he was the best choice. Of course, then Tuor comes along and he does go corrupt and twisted, so there might have been a seed... but I really think he was not a bad person to begin with. Just a little off.
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Old 10-10-2010, 06:02 PM   #35
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Another interesting point to consinder:

If there was anything 'Bad' or 'Evil' in the ways that Eol went about getting Aredhel, then would you also charge Melian with the same 'wrong-doing'?
Did not Thingol get enchanted into love?
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:46 PM   #36
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Erm... The guy lusted after his close relative. He was messed up when morgoth met him.
JRRT abandoned a earlier taboo about Eldar marrying first cousins when he was in the Myths Transformed phase of rewriting the SIL, and was considering making Celeborn a first cousin of Galadriel. He rewrote it this to be taboo only in the case of being a first cousin on both parent's sides of descent (eg two brother marry two sisters with their respective children being twice as geneticly related as one side first cousins). A bit of contortion there to fit the possible rewrite of Celeborn in a Falmar and grandson of Olwe. But for the time most of the material in the published SIL was written, first cousin marriage was taboo for the Eldar.
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Old 01-03-2013, 04:10 AM   #37
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I feel somewhat sorry for Aredhel for her marriage, but not a lot. I think when Tolkien said 'she was not wholly unwilling' to me it sounds like she was infatuated with him and the idea of being with someone who was so wholly unlike her previous society (which she probably equated with freedom from her previous bonds). And she stayed because it was romantic or cool or something like that, and she seems to have agreed to all his conditions as well, but some part of her was perhaps a little discontented. But I don't think she was unhappy or controlled overmuch.

And maybe if Maeglin hadn't wanted so much to see Gondolin, she herself might have stayed with him forever (FOREVER. IN ELF YEARS, which is no laughing matter). I think she was so intent on impressing her son while telling her stories that she may have completely fooled herself as to how happy she really was in Gondolin. I really wonder if Eol wasn't right when he said she would sicken of her golden cage soon enough - I think of everyone there, he probably understood her flighty nature the best. And that is why Eol claimed Maeglin in front of Turgon, rather than both of them, because he knew Maeglin was the driving force behind the flight and most likely to join the Noldor heart and soul, whereas Aredhel would come back on her own anyway.

Which may also partly explain why he chose to attack his own son rather than his wife. You'd think he would have more hatred for the wife or curse her more for having abandoned him, but instead he went for the 'guilty' party.

Finally - I don't care what anyone else says about Maeglin being somewhat good until Morgoth exploited his weakness/he became evil only by dint of being Eol the Jerk's son - I disagree. I think he was horrid all by himself, when he calmly separated his parents, watched his father being condemned to die, watched his mother being killed and at the end of it, 'didn't say anything'. I think to him none of that mattered anymore to him because he got what he wanted (to be in Gondolin) and his parents had just outlived their usefulness to him....
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Old 11-07-2018, 10:07 AM   #38
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For Elves being usually so wise and noble, Tolkien wasn't afraid to have Elves be total jerks. I appreciate that in world-building. Tolkien was not too enamoured with the Eldar to deprive them of their natural share of jerks. They're still usually highly capable jerks, but complete jerks nonetheless. Fëanor was one, but Eöl is right up there with him. Something with being great creators and inventors sure seems to bring the character flaws out.

I tend to give Maeglin a little more credit, just like the sons of Fëanor, because with being raised by such a jerk-dad that has got to leave their kids damaged to start with.

Maeglin does have more redeeming qualities, it seems. And while he makes mistakes, he doesn't do it as often as other tragic figures (Túrin, I'm looking at you) in Tolkien's works. He had skills but also courage. His presence did enrich Gondolin. His unfortunate love for Idril was what caused him to ultimately fail. But with a guide as Eöl and Aredhel on matters of love and consent... well the poor guy was set up to fail from the start...
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