Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > The Silmarillion > The Silmarillion Project
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-23-2004, 09:00 AM   #21
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Beren was healed by Lúthien and as it seems with most of the most perilous circumstances, they were rescued by the Eagles. Just in time, I might add and they were returned to the borders of Doriath.
Too bad for Beren that he had swooned! When he had a chance to have a magnificent view of Gondolin from above!
Quote:
Even with all of what Thingol did to Beren, he would not forsake his daughter to him forever. I wonder if Thingol felt the same way!
Beren was indeed a noble man, wasn't he.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2004, 09:09 AM   #22
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Quote:
Originally posted by Falagar
Are we going to take The Shibboleth into account here about the Amrod and Amras? Though one of the brothers actually died there I still think it's relevant (especially thinking of Ambarusso's comment "Fell and fey you are become").
Yes, I like the story about Ambarto dying in the ship, and Ambarusso's comment is relevant. But there's nothing elsewhere in Tolkien's work that supports the Shibboleth on thins point, and even if it is one of his last writings, I think it is difficult to incorporate it. In the published Sil we hear about Maitimo's and Maglor's weariness and sicknes of heart because of the Oath, but none of the other brothers seem to have any regrets.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2004, 09:48 AM   #23
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
True, but then again we don't get to hear much of them at all, and whenever they are mentioned they are just together with "the rest" (of the brothers). Here we actually get to hear a bit about how they think. And true, it'll be hard to incorporate it with the rest of the Silmarillion in some ways, but basically we can only remove Amras from "Amrod and Amras...".
__________________
Fëanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

Last edited by Falagar : 01-23-2004 at 09:50 AM.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2004, 09:57 AM   #24
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
Nazgul

You could just imagine Amrod as having gone insame and recreated his twin as a second personality, and the 5 other brothers humoring him.
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2004, 10:01 AM   #25
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You could just imagine Amrod as having gone insame and recreated his twin as a second personality, and the 5 other brothers humoring him.
Probably why they (he) went away and hid in the east of Beleriand. *tries to imagine what kind of songs Maglor could have made about him*
__________________
Fëanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

Last edited by Falagar : 01-23-2004 at 10:03 AM.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2004, 10:56 AM   #26
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Haha, you guys are funny.

Falagar, you're right in that we don't hear much of A&A. I wish we did. I'd like to hear more about Caranthir too. Though I seem to remember from one version of the Sil (not the published) that A&A in fact were the leaders in the third kinslaying.

It's funny, we have M&M, C&C and A&A. Caranthir is the leftover.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2004, 11:21 AM   #27
matthew
Enting
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 75
Okay Maedhros. Anyone that leaves 8 two foot long posts in a row is officially crazy. And by the way, I read the lay of Leithan, so your outline isn't helping much
__________________
Nai anar caluva tierelyanna

Flame me. Go ahead.

Matthew in 2028. One by one we're bringing them back.

Vote Nader.

Stop the hamster eaters!!!!

End global warming! Turn on the AC!!!

Gadzooks! Run!
matthew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2004, 11:43 AM   #28
Sister Golden Hair
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator
 
Sister Golden Hair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
Quote:
Originally posted by matthew
Okay Maedhros. Anyone that leaves 8 two foot long posts in a row is officially crazy. And by the way, I read the lay of Leithan, so your outline isn't helping much
Well, in all the intros to chapters in the project there are long posts.It's necessary. People have done a great job with all of the intros.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey
Travel and Tourism Guide
Sister Golden Hair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 02:38 PM   #29
Beor
founder of the color blue
 
Beor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
Gimli

Hey, feeling like just a little guy posting here (you guys are way smarter than me, man), but I do have a question.

I was reading HoME: Book of Lost Tales 2 a while back (havent had much time to read lately), so its not too fresh in my mind, but any ideas on why Tolkien switched from the cats of Morgoth to the one wolf (whos name I dont know how to spell, Carcaroth? something to that effect)? I'm sure Chris T. explains it, but he usually confuses me.

Just wondering (also, I've wanted to get in on these discussions, but all my questions seem like something I could look up if I wasnt lazy, and I dont have enought time to read the books to come up with a good discussion, so this will have to do)
__________________
Well, there it is.
Beor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:22 PM   #30
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Hm. It's a long time since I read the Tale of Tinúviel, but I know the Tale to be very different from how the story of Beren and Lúthien appeared in the later versions of the Silmarillion. I don't think CRT ever have explained why Tevildo the Cat disappeared, but he did say that the Huan vs. werewolf could be viewed as the continuation of the Huan vs. Tevildo theme, and that the Necromancer (Sauron) replaced Tevildo as the one who imprisoned Beren.

Though I would say that Tevildo and his companions fit well into the more 'playful' atmosphere and style of the rest of the tales, but not in the later versions as the language and the prose form of the Silmarillion developed through the years.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.

Last edited by Artanis : 02-11-2004 at 03:30 PM.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:28 PM   #31
Beor
founder of the color blue
 
Beor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
Gimli

Yeah, thats right, I forgot about the sauron part, thanks. Any speculation on why he changed it? I thought it was really good, and I liked the legendarium (if that's even a word) of why dogs hate cats.

That said, I think that may be why he did, because when he wrote the LOTR, he had to slip away from his whole "Tol Eressa is England" mythology, and maybe he decided not to have as much myth, also, he now had Sauron. Most likely, it was just one of those changes that all stories go through that added some perspective to it that he thought was missing in Tevildo.

by the way, sorry I havent gotton back to you. I'm on it, I promise.
__________________
Well, there it is.
Beor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:33 PM   #32
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
please see my last post, I edited it.
And don't stress yourself, there's no hurry.

Edit: And no, I believe Tevildo disappeared long before LotR was begun. The Lay of Leithian was written in the late twenties, and there were no cats there.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.

Last edited by Artanis : 02-11-2004 at 03:38 PM.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:35 PM   #33
Beor
founder of the color blue
 
Beor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
Gimli

gotcha, that's what I was trying to get at with a lot of words (one of which, I may have made up (legendarium), never heard that one before...something similar maybe...)
__________________
Well, there it is.
Beor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:38 PM   #34
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Editing and cross-posting with you again.
And I also use the word legendarium.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:40 PM   #35
Beor
founder of the color blue
 
Beor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
Gimli

Well, at least we're consistent.

Do you know where it says when Tevildo disappeared? (probably right there in the BoLT2, right under my nose....)
__________________
Well, there it is.
Beor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:41 PM   #36
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
I'll see if I can look something up. But I know that Tevildo and his gang appear in the Tale only.

And I'll edit this post when I'm finished!

Edit: This is from BoLT 1, the Foreword:
Quote:
The Book of Lost Tales was begun by my father in 1916-17 during the First War, when he was 25 years old, and left
incomplete several years later. It is the starting-point, at least in fuHy-formed narrative, of the history of Valinor and Middle-earth; but before the Tales were complete he turned to the composition of long poems, the Lay of Leithian in rhyming couplets (the story of Beren and Luthien), and The Children of Hurin in alliterative verse. The prose form of the 'mythology' began again from a new starting-point* in a quite brief synopsis, or 'Sketch' as he called it, written in
1926 and expressly intended to provide the necessary back-ground of knowledge for the understanding of the alliterative poem.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.

Last edited by Artanis : 02-11-2004 at 03:56 PM.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2004, 03:56 PM   #37
Beor
founder of the color blue
 
Beor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: E-Space
Posts: 1,727
Gimli

Yeah, I am going to have to find time to refresh my memory on this anyway. I'm pretty sure its in the BoLT 2, I just cant remember. Thanks, Artanis.
__________________
Well, there it is.
Beor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2004, 12:20 PM   #38
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien. It is a good thing that the maiar had no parents. Jeje.
I hadn't thought of that parallel. Thingol is indeed using two different measures for himself and Beren. Although one could argue that Maiar and Elves are in a way closer connected to one another and more similar than Elves and Men. And as (I think) SGH pointed out, Thingol didn't deem himself inferior to Melian.

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?
I don't think the whole host would have marched, Finrod may have considered the advantages of sneaking in unnoticed against those of marching with an army in full view against a mighty opponent. But Finrod would have had more support and more counsel so that maybe their endavour had been more succesful.

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
The power of Lúthien is great. Now imagine if Thingol had used her daughter to make sleep all of her enemies in a battle? That would have been a great advantage.
Thingol doesn't strike me as the type of even considering bringing his daughter to a battlefield (just as little as considering to go to a battlefield himself ). But would Lúthien's power have been that great that she could have affected a whole army? I doubt it.

Maedhros, I noticed you used 'her' instead of Thingol's once of twice. Any unconcious opinions shining through here?

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Beren felt asleep too. And our friend became greedy too. Because of the use of the power of Lúthien, she was weary and their disguises were removed. I wonder if Beren had not been so greedy, could they have fled from Angand freely.
I don't think anyone would have considered leaving the two other silmarils there without even trying to get them out the crown as well. Just think of it, here you are, in the throne room where none has been able to penetrate before, with the feared Dark lord snoring at your feet like a baby and the most wonderful jewels within hand's reach and you'll just let them lie? Not a chance IMO.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's
Well, Orodreth at that time could not have withstood them and they held great influence over the people of Nargothrond. Their kinship in the eldest line of Noldorin princes would just have furthered their claim. IMO the people would have supported them if they would have tried to take the throne. A fickle people, those Elves of Nargothrond....

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
It's diffucult to see how Lúthien could have known about the Oath and still revealed herself and her purpose to C&C. She was not stupid. But how this essential information may have escaped her I don't know. She had lived all her life within well-protected borders, but she still knew about the evils that befell outside her father's realm. Maybe it was her father's careless attitude towards the Fëanorean Oath that had influenced her, and perhaps she didn't realise how far Fëanor's sons would go to fulfil it. Though the latter seems unlikely too. An oath is an oath.
I think she may have known about the Oath but perhaps she misinterpreted its consequences. She wanted to rescue Beren first, the silmarils were only secondary in her thoughts. Besides, she herself was under no vow to deliver the silmaril to Thingol, the brothers had no legimate reason for stopping and locking her up on behalf of their Oath.
__________________
We are not things.
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2004, 12:52 PM   #39
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
Quote:
Originally posted by Eärniel
I don't think anyone would have considered leaving the two other silmarils there without even trying to get them out the crown as well. Just think of it, here you are, in the throne room where none has been able to penetrate before, with the feared Dark lord snoring at your feet like a baby and the most wonderful jewels within hand's reach and you'll just let them lie? Not a chance IMO.
Agreed, though I still get a bad feeling whenever I read that passage (you know, the feeling that makes you scream "Don't do it!" to the heroes at the cinema )
Quote:

I think she may have known about the Oath but perhaps she misinterpreted its consequences. She wanted to rescue Beren first, the silmarils were only secondary in her thoughts. Besides, she herself was under no vow to deliver the silmaril to Thingol, the brothers had no legimate reason for stopping and locking her up on behalf of their Oath.
I think she had too little experience with them to know how far they would go.
__________________
Fëanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

Last edited by Falagar : 02-22-2004 at 12:56 PM.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2004, 03:46 PM   #40
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
Quote:
Originally posted by Falagar
I think she had too little experience with them to know how far they would go.
When I read about the Celegorm and [EDIT: Curufin] I always get the feeling that in some ways they acted ...'unelfish'. Their dishonouring conduct of cheating and attacking defenseless opponents doesn't entirely fit the 'noble' image of the Noldorin royalty. Granted, the first kinslaying and such can't be considered noble in any way but it seems to me the C-brothers took it somehow even a step further. I think a lot of people would be surprised by how far these two were willing to go.
__________________
We are not things.
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage Telcontar_Dunedain The Silmarillion 72 01-17-2005 05:33 PM
Character analysis: Beren, Tuor, Aragorn Beren3000 Middle Earth 25 09-29-2004 03:37 PM
Were Beren and Lúthien right in their Quest? Maedhros The Silmarillion 19 08-17-2003 04:20 AM
Beren and Luthien Sister Golden Hair The Silmarillion 25 04-25-2003 06:57 PM
How did Beren and Luthien die? Captain Stern The Silmarillion 16 01-25-2002 04:38 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail