Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > The Silmarillion
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-19-2001, 10:41 PM   #1
Captain Stern
Elven Warrior
 
Captain Stern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
How did Beren and Luthien die?

In the Silmarillion Beren is killed by the dwarfs who sacked Doriath and I don't think it mentions what happens to Luthien at all.

As the "Ruin of Doriath" is considered false by many people what does it say in HOME or Letters about the deaths of the couple?
Captain Stern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2001, 11:09 PM   #2
Darth Tater
The man
 
Darth Tater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
I'm not the authority here on all things nerdy Tolkien, but I'm pretty sure it was good old old age.
Darth Tater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2001, 04:15 AM   #3
Bacchus
Elven Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Houston TX USA
Posts: 245
Um... I think you're confusing Beren with Dior. Beren was killed by Carcharoth during the Hunting of the Wolf. After Luthien chose mortality, they returned to Ossiriand and eventually died of old age.

Beren's connection to the dwarves was that he led an army of Green-Elves that slaughtered the Dwarves who were returning from the sack of Doriath.
__________________
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2001, 07:49 AM   #4
Captain Stern
Elven Warrior
 
Captain Stern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
RE

No I'm not:

Indeed Beren was killed once before by Carcharoth but in the Silmarillion at least, he was killed for the last time by Dwarfs of Nogrod:

"And as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the shepherds of the trees, and they drove the dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence it is said came never one to to climb the high passes that led to their homes.
In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the necklace of the Dwarves; but dying laid his curse upon all the treasure. Then Beren gazed in wonder on the selfsame jewel of Feanor that he had cut from Morgoth's iron crown , now shining set amid gold and gems by the cunning of the dwarves; and he washed it clean of blood in the waters of the river......................................but Beren took the nauglamir and returned to Tol Galen. Little did it ease the grief of Luthien to learn that the Lord of Nogrod was slain and many Dwarves beside; but it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor..............Now Dior Thingol's heir bade farewell to Beren and Luthien,"

Hmm, 1 minute he's dying on the field of battle, the next he's returning with the silmaril to Tol Galen...I'm confused!
Captain Stern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2001, 07:55 AM   #5
Captain Stern
Elven Warrior
 
Captain Stern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
RE

OMG

I don't believe this, it looks like I've misunderstood what it said...

"In that battle by Sarn Athrad Beren fought his last fight, and himself slew the Lord of Nogrod, and wrested from him the necklace of the Dwarves; but dying laid his curse upon all the treasure."

So it was the Lord of Nogrod who was dying and laid the curse on all the treasure and not Beren...silly me
Captain Stern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2001, 09:45 PM   #6
Eol
Sapling
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 1
To my understanding of Luthien is that she did not give up her "mortality" rather she commited suicide, that is where she was given a second chance, but only could return as beren could.

"For it was the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her *last* farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Luthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass." Silmarillion p186

Unless I miss understood this section, it seemed to further in the chapter when she met with Beren, she had to been, for he was dead as well.
Eol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2001, 10:01 PM   #7
Darth Tater
The man
 
Darth Tater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
Suicide? How shall I put this? Um, no.
Darth Tater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2001, 03:35 PM   #8
Wayfarer
The Insufferable
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
Beren was slain by carcharoth.
luthien faded and died from grief.

Both were reincarnated.
Both died of natural causes.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2001, 02:58 PM   #9
ArwenEvenstar
Elf Lord
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: and why do YOU want to know?
Posts: 685
Arwen Undomiel

couldn't have put it better myself!
__________________
The only thing active about me is my imagination!
ArwenEvenstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2001, 04:48 AM   #10
Michael Martinez
Elven Loremaster
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 892
Actually, Tolkien wrote (in his speculative narrative voice) that the Silmaril probably speeded the deaths of Beren and Luthien.
Michael Martinez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2002, 09:06 PM   #11
Wayfarer
The Insufferable
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
That's the Valinor/Too Holy For Thou thing coming into play again, ya think?
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2002, 11:44 PM   #12
Captain Stern
Elven Warrior
 
Captain Stern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
RE

If that's the case Wayfarer why would Luthien have her life speeded up? She was half Elf and more than that half Maia also. It didn't speed up Feanor or Thingol's life did it?


edit:
Oops, I didn't notice that MM said that the silmaril sped up the death's of Luthien and Beren and not their lives.

Last edited by Captain Stern : 01-02-2002 at 11:46 PM.
Captain Stern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2002, 09:54 PM   #13
bropous
EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED
DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO
 
bropous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 1,176
Well, first off, Eol, welcome to the Moot.

Second, as for the [second] death of Beren, I can find no primary source to indicate how he, or Luthien, "died for good". So far. I am still trying to find a cite.
__________________
"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.
bropous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2002, 07:26 PM   #14
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
I believe I read somewhere that as Luthien wore the necklace with the silmaril her beauty would have been to great for Middle Earth, so that could have been it, that speeding it up I mean
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2002, 09:53 PM   #15
markedel
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Queen's
Posts: 1,245
I thought the knowledge of their deaths was unknown.
markedel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2002, 10:15 PM   #16
Captain Stern
Elven Warrior
 
Captain Stern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 319
RE: How did Beren and Luthien die?

Quote:
I believe I read somewhere that as Luthien wore the necklace with the silmaril her beauty would have been to great for Middle Earth, so that could have been it, that speeding it up I mean
It says that in The Silmarillion, on the last page of the chapter: Of the Ruin of Doriath:

Quote:
But the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end ; for the flame of the beauty of Luthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.
__________________
Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.
Captain Stern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2002, 04:38 PM   #17
Earniel
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
 
Earniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
Why thank you Captain Stern! My point exactly.
Earniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chapter 19: Of Beren and Lúthien Maedhros The Silmarillion Project 50 01-20-2019 01:17 PM
Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage Telcontar_Dunedain The Silmarillion 72 01-17-2005 05:33 PM
Character analysis: Beren, Tuor, Aragorn Beren3000 Middle Earth 25 09-29-2004 03:37 PM
Were Beren and Lúthien right in their Quest? Maedhros The Silmarillion 19 08-17-2003 04:20 AM
Beren and Luthien Sister Golden Hair The Silmarillion 25 04-25-2003 06:57 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail