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Old 10-30-2003, 02:36 PM   #21
Elvet
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I have a question about Finrod's oath to Beren. Could it be that it Finrod made it to ultimately distance himself from the doom of the Noldor and being further involved in the Kinslaying?
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Old 10-30-2003, 03:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvet
I have a question about Finrod's oath to Beren. Could it be that it Finrod made it to ultimately distance himself from the doom of the Noldor and being further involved in the Kinslaying?
I don't know about that. Finrod wasn't involved in the Kinslaying though. He was at the back of the great host, and the Kinslaying was already over, I believe, by the time he came upon it.

I'm not quite sure how he could have distanced himself from the Doom of the Noldor. The doom was layed upon all of them as they left Valinor. Finrod said something about it when he spoke to his people after they turned on him.

From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977.

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Old 10-30-2003, 07:46 PM   #23
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I guess what I meant to say was that because of his oath to Beren, he ended up dying an early and heroic death and was spared involvement in the Fall of Doriath wherein he might have had to take sides against Dior.

Is the term 'Kinslaying' reserved for the elves of Valinor and the flight of the Noldor? Or would it also pertain to the fall of Doriath?
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Old 10-31-2003, 03:28 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvet
I guess what I meant to say was that because of his oath to Beren, he ended up dying an early and heroic death and was spared involvement in the Fall of Doriath wherein he might have had to take sides against Dior.
Why would he take side against Dior?
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Is the term 'Kinslaying' reserved for the elves of Valinor and the flight of the Noldor? Or would it also pertain to the fall of Doriath?
There were three kinslayings: The first in Alqualondë, the second in Doriath between Fëanor's sons and Dior's people, and the third by the mouths of Sirion, again caused by Feanor's sons against Elwing and her people.
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Old 10-31-2003, 01:18 PM   #25
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Artanis, thank you for responding about the kinslaying. I had forgotten about the third example.
For some reason, I had assumed Fingon would have been bound to side with Feanor in his quest for the Silmarils. As I referred back to the book, I see now that he was against the oath, and accompanied the rest of the Noldor exodus for reasons other than the Silmaril recovery.
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Old 10-31-2003, 03:53 PM   #26
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Why would he take side against Dior?
Well had he lived and got that far, he would have been faced there with choosing sides, either of his mother's kin, (Dior) or his father's kin (the sons of Feanor) Not to mention that he was friends with Maglor and Maedhros, and harbored Celegorm and Curufin.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 11-01-2003, 01:17 PM   #27
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I'm not sure why the name of Fingon appeared in this thread, but there is an interesting quote about the motifs of the other Ñoldor who were not under Fëanor.
From Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
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As he said with some justice: 'My brother's claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?' But Fingolfin answered: 'I have not rejected the Valar, nor their authority in all matters where it is just for them to use it. But if the Eldar were given free choice to leave Middle-earth and go to Aman, and accepted it because of the loveliness and bliss of that land, their free choice to leave it and return to Middle-earth, when it has become dark and desecrated, cannot be taken away. Moreover I have an errand in Middle-earth, the avenging of the blood of my father upon Morgoth, whom the Valar let loose among us. Fëanor seeks first his stolen treasures.'
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As an adjective American is:
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2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
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Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 11-01-2003, 02:42 PM   #28
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Oops, sorry! I meant to say Finrod in my last post.
Thanks for the reference, Maehdros. I have all the HoMe books, but have only read vol. 6 - 11.
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Old 11-01-2003, 11:50 PM   #29
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That to me is a mistake Elvet to read them in that order, and this is why:
Home 1 - 5 consists of the older lore of the legendarium, the actual evolution of it. Because you have read Home 6-11, you would have had noticed the references that CT makes toward the older home books. In the case of Home 6-9, it doesn't matter that much because LOTR is almost independent (sense of the current story) of the Silmarillion, but there are certain tidbits that can be really helpful.
I think that by using this approach one learn about the evolution of the legendarium and how come it ended up like that.
In home 6 for example, when JRRT first introduces Glorfindel into the tale, he writes a note saying that he must explain the ancestry of Glorfindel:
From The Shadow of the Past: At Rivendell
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Story of Gilgalad told by Elrond? Who is Trotter? Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.
These kinds of things, while being on the Published Silmarillion, don't have the clarity that one would get by reading the Home books.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 11-04-2003, 03:19 AM   #30
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Why Finrod?

I'm trying to figure out why Ulmo chose to put those heavy dreams upon Finrod as well as Turgon that night by the river Sirion. Ulmo clearly has a plan involving Turgon and Gondolin, but what was the purpose with Finrod and Nargothrond, except for being a stronghold and a safe place?
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Old 11-04-2003, 03:04 PM   #31
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I think that Ulmo had foreknowledge of Morgoth's breaking of the siege and he sent the dreams for Turgon and Finrod to found strong, secret places. Finrod chose strength and inaccessibility over secrecy.
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Old 11-04-2003, 05:43 PM   #32
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Yes, that I understand. But if there was no other purpose, why choose Finrod, and not any of the other Noldorin princes?

Ulmo had this great plan with Turgon, Gondolin and Tuor. It makes me think that he had a purpose with Finrod too.
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Old 11-05-2003, 01:16 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
Yes, that I understand. But if there was no other purpose, why choose Finrod, and not any of the other Noldorin princes?

Ulmo had this great plan with Turgon, Gondolin and Tuor. It makes me think that he had a purpose with Finrod too.
I'm not sure that there were any others to choose from. Fingolfin and Fingon had Hithlum. Turgon had Gondolin. Finrods brothers were guarding Ard-galen, so who does that leave but the sons of Feanor? Not the best choice with those guys.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 11-05-2003, 02:23 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvet
I guess what I meant to say was that because of his oath to Beren, he ended up dying an early and heroic death and was spared involvement in the Fall of Doriath wherein he might have had to take sides against Dior.
I doubt he would have taken any side if he could prevent it. He didn't swear the oaths of Fëanor and his sons, so he could perhaps have tried to remain neutral, had he had the chance to be around by then.

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
I'm trying to figure out why Ulmo chose to put those heavy dreams upon Finrod as well as Turgon that night by the river Sirion. Ulmo clearly has a plan involving Turgon and Gondolin, but what was the purpose with Finrod and Nargothrond, except for being a stronghold and a safe place?
Interesting point. I suppose maybe because Finrod seemed to be one of the more level-headed of the Noldorin lords and not directly bound by the Oath.

Oh SGH, all this talk of Finrod made me see what you do see in your king of Nargothrond.
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Old 11-05-2003, 02:26 PM   #35
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Isn't he wonderful? (thud, drool)
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 11-06-2003, 03:43 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I'm not sure that there were any others to choose from. Fingolfin and Fingon had Hithlum. Turgon had Gondolin. Finrods brothers were guarding Ard-galen, so who does that leave but the sons of Feanor? Not the best choice with those guys.
But at the time Finrod had his dreams, he was guarding the pass of Sirion, so in that respect he was not an obvious choice.

Perhaps it makes more sense to think that Ulmo foresaw the coming of Beren and Finrod's part in his quest.

This has become another Finrod thread.
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Old 11-06-2003, 10:39 AM   #37
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Since Tugon and Finrod were off on a tramp and sleeping by the River, Ulmo siezed his chance to warn those two about the coming danger, I guess.
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Old 11-06-2003, 07:50 PM   #38
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I think that Ulmo had foreknowledge of Morgoth's breaking of the siege and he sent the dreams for Turgon and Finrod to found strong, secret places. Finrod chose strength and inaccessibility over secrecy.
I don't quite agree with this. Morgoth knew only the general region wherein Nargothrond lay until Turin's ill-fated bridge building and aggressive patrols. Even so, Ulmo sent messengers to Orodreth warning against Turin's policies of open warfare which were not heeded.
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Old 11-06-2003, 08:53 PM   #39
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True enough; it was "hidden" to that extent. Turin reminds me of that character in "L'l Abner" that walked around with a dark cloud over his head all of the time. Aragorn's cri du cour, "An ill fate is upon me this day and all my choices go amiss," could be Turin's epitath.
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Old 11-07-2003, 12:46 AM   #40
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Maybe it was just that Ulmo knew that Finrod and Turgon were quite capable of establishing these strongholds and ruling them securely for many years. He was one of the Valar that did not forsake the Noldor in exile and constantly intervened to aid and guide them.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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