Who Knew about Bilbo’s Ring?

[Alcuin]

I count 17 people, 14 of whom survived the Battle of Five Armies or were not in it.

• Gollum. Obviously
• Thorin & Co. Everyone but Thorin found out during the battle with the spiders. Thorin found out while imprisoned in the Elvenking’s halls. Thorin, KÃ*li, and FÃ*li died, leaving 10 Dwarves who knew Bilbo had a ring that made him invisible.
• Gandalf. He couldn’t learn about the Ring until he reached Dale, but Bilbo thought he suspected something as soon as he rejoined Thorin & Co.

  “Mr. Baggins has more about him than you guess.� [Gandalf] gave Bilbo a queer look from under his bushy eyebrows, as he said this, and the hobbit wondered if he guessed at the part of his tale that he had left out.

• Dain Ironfoot. There is no certainty here, but he probably learned about it from the survivors of Thorin & Co.; if not immediately, surely they had sense enough to tell him when the messenger from Mordor arrived. (I assume the messenger was a Ringwraith.)
• The Elvenking. Again, there is nothing certain here, but he implies that not only does he know Bilbo has a ring that makes him invisible, but he also knows that it casts a faint shadow in sunlight:

  May your shadow never grow less (or stealing would be too easy)!

Is there anyone else?

[Valandil]

Good surmises. I can't think of anyone else offhand. Unless maybe Bard.

Not looking at my copy of the book now. What about the guards who discovered him when he came to hand over the Arkenstone?

With a handful knowing - I wonder if talk of it spread around.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

What about the guards who discovered him when he came to hand over the Arkenstone?

Bilbo slipped and fell fording the Running River near Dale. Elven guards immediately began searching for him. He slipped off the Ring behind a rock before stepping out and asking to see Bard. Since he took precautions, the guards were unaware of the Ring. One their questions was, “How did you get so far past our sentinels?�

Originally Posted by Valandil

With a handful knowing - I wonder if talk of it spread around.

That’s what I wondered, too.

Gandalf would have been professionally careful not to spread the tale about, but he might have shared his information with the Elvenking. It’s also possible that the Elves, being observant, unusually intelligent, and sharp-eyed (that’s redundant of “observant�, I know) might have figured it out for themselves; but it does sound as if the Elvenking knew, too.

I don’t see how Gandalf could know before Dale at the earliest, whatever his suspicions. He probably got the whole story on the way home; his conversations with Frodo in the beginning of FotR indicate that he soon got the true story, too, and realized that something was wrong.

I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had “won� it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his “birthday present�. The lies were too much alike for my comfort. Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once.

By the way, Gandalf went all the way home with Bilbo, right to the door of Bag End where the auction was taking place. That could indicate he was watching him.

I don’t imagine Thorin & Co kept the matter altogether secret. Still, I doubt everyone in Erebor and Dale knew about the Ring; but neither did Glóin indicate Dáin was surprised by the messenger’s inquiries about “a little ring, the least of rings�. The Elves should be much the same, not spreading it about the Woodland Realm.

The number was small, I think; but 14 seems an awfully small number, even amongst a bunch of tight-lipped folk. I don’t know if Bard found out or not.

[Rían]

Didn't Pippin and Merry say they knew about the Ring? I'll go grab my book ...

*crickets*

OK, from FOTR:A Conspiracy Unmasked:

"Yes, the Ring," said Merry. "My dear old hobbit, you don't allow for the inquisitiveness of friends. I have known about the existence of the Ring for years - before Bilbo went away, in fact ..."

Then he told the rest of the conspirators when things got serious, so Merry, Pippin, Sam and Fatty knew. Or were you talking about another time period?


EDIT - whoops, I forgot what forum I was in ... you're only talking about the Hobbit book ... sorry! I'm sure you guys knew about Pippin and Merry!

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

EDIT - whoops, I forgot what forum I was in ... you're only talking about the Hobbit book ... sorry! I'm sure you guys knew about Pippin and Merry!

That is where I was headed, too, RÃ*an.

We might consider whether Elrond belongs in The Hobbit list. If he didn’t learn about the Ring from Bilbo’s recounting his tale in Rivendell, or from Gandalf on the return trip, it was probably not many years later that Gandalf confided in him.

[Alcuin]

Graphically. Of the thirteen dwarves in Thorin & Co, Thorin, KÃ*li and FÃ*li were dead at the end of the story. I think Gandalf either told the Elvenking, or he figured it out. (The Elvenking was smart, observant, and wise.) I also think Gandalf told Elrond upon their return to Rivendell. Maybe it was professional courtesy, or seeking counsel; but Elrond had the remnant of the Smiths of Eregion in Rivendell, and Bilbo clearly had a ring of that sort. (Reference posts 1 and 3.)

It’s worth considering in the context of Lord of the Rings whether Gandalf thought at first that Bilbo had one of the lesser rings the Noldor made in Eregion. That’s what makes sense: Gandalf had no reason to believe it was the One Ring, but since the Great Rings were all accounted for (with the outside possibility of a loose one of the Seven), a logical first conclusion would be that Bilbo had one of the Noldor’s “trial� or essay rings. The only risk to Bilbo would be that Sauron’s taint would still be on it; but it’s possible a number of these were floating about.

[Nerwen]

I have always been fascinated by "the lesser Rings" that Gandalf first thought Bilbo had found. Obviously they had no "proper gem", as the Three, the Seven, and the Nine had, according to Gandalf. But what I am unclear about is, would they have made the wearer invisible? The conclusion seems inescapable, given Gandalf's knowledge of that property of the Hobbit's Trove. One wonders, in vain, for some other information about them. They could not make the wearer aware of other wearers' thoughts, as the Ruling Ring was said to do by Galadriel. Surely they could not "breed gold" as the Seven were said to do. The only other magic ring I know of outside Andvari's Ring in Wagner is more like the One Ring in that

This attribute is revealed early in The Ring of the Nibelung, in the opening scene, when the dwarf Alberich learns from the Rhinemaidens that the one who forswears love can make a ring from their gold, a ring that will grant its owner mastery of the universe..

http://www.umich.edu/~umfandsf/symbo.../ringmyth.html

Susie

[Attalus]

In the lore of magic rings, invisibility would be a high-value trait, making it the province of the Great Rings. Look at the legends of the Tarnkappe, for instance. I think Gandalf just had other things on his mind, and The Will To Disbelieve is not limited to Mortals.

[Alcuin]

This discussion probably belongs in a LotR thread, but I think I’ve made an oversight.

In FotR, “Shadow of the Past�, Gandalf speaks to Frodo about the Ring. I’ve added some bolding to make some points.

I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first.

The Three and the Nine were accounted for. The only Great Rings on the loose were the One and perhaps one of the Seven. But Thráin himself told Gandalf that Sauron had taken “the last of the Seven�.

How did Gandalf know it was a Great Ring … from the first? He doesn’t say. Perhaps the lesser rings did not render mortals invisible. Perhaps they were not associated with fading, the fate Elves in Middle-earth so feared: Sauron’s solution prevented fading among Elves, but caused Men (and Hobbits) to become invisible. (Which suggests none of the Great Rings, not even the One, would make an Elf invisible. If the MÃ*rdain were so concerned about fading – essentially becoming invisible – in the first place, why on earth would they concoct Rings that made them invisible – faded – when they wore them? But I think Tolkien was clear the Three did not confer invisibility, meaning the others did … that seems inconsistent to me now.)

Gandalf was great at getting information out of people. Bilbo trusted him implicitly. The only conclusion is that, during the months-long journey from Erebor back to Bag End, Gandalf got the whole, correct tale – perhaps not all at once, but in pieces and parts, until he could assemble it with no fear of error. (Which might explain why he travelled with Bilbo all the way back to his round, green front door.)

So logically, assuming that he consulted with Elrond in Rivendell (I don’t imagine he didn’t: there was much at stake, and the surviving MÃ*rdain still in Middle-earth were with Elrond), they’re together in Rivendell thinking,

• The Hobbit finds a magic ring.
• It is for certain a great ring. (It doesn’t matter how Gandalf knows that.)
• It’s not one of the Three or the Nine.
• Did they know then for certain the Seven were all accounted for? Suppose they do…
• What does that leave? Just the One, doesn’t it?

Whether Elrond knows or not isn’t important. Why did Gandalf just leave Bilbo in the Shire with the dingus? Because it’s the “right� thing to do?

[Nerwen]

Hm. I think that it should have been obvious from the first that Gollum's ring was either the lost one of the Seven or the Ruling Ring. But I agree that Gandalf didn't have the time to think it through at the time and only later came to realize what Bilbo had. Perhaps if JRRT had been able to rewriteThe Hobbit as he was supposed to do (Attalus says that Carpenter says this) he cold have explained it better.

Susie

[brownjenkins]

I'm not sure whether Gandalf could be completely certain whether or not it was one of the Nine. It was indeterminate from the lore at the time whether any of the Nine actually held on to their rings, so the idea of one of them being left on a burial mound and appropriated at a later point was definitely in the realm of possibility.

In the inverse, the idea of The One turning up yet staying hidden for so long was extremely unlikely, and probably only contributed to hobbit stamina. The absurdity of what actually happened by chance with The One is what blinded Gandalf!

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

So logically, assuming that he consulted with Elrond in Rivendell (I don’t imagine he didn’t: there was much at stake, and the surviving MÃ*rdain still in Middle-earth were with Elrond), they’re together in Rivendell thinking,

• The Hobbit finds a magic ring.
• It is for certain a great ring. (It doesn’t matter how Gandalf knows that.)
• It’s not one of the Three or the Nine.
• Did they know then for certain the Seven were all accounted for? Suppose they do…
• What does that leave? Just the One, doesn’t it?

Whether Elrond knows or not isn’t important. Why did Gandalf just leave Bilbo in the Shire with the dingus? Because it’s the “right� thing to do?

Hi Alcuin.

Just wanted to point out that the logic above has been used before....by Mr. Olmer.

http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=10788

In my opinion, it is kind of hard to explain away without using an author error excuse. This isn't some little detail that can be missed due to great minds being busy with other things. This is potentially (and obviously so) the fate of Middle Earth.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by CAB

Hi Alcuin.Just wanted to point out that the logic above has been used before....by Mr. Olmer.

http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=10788

In my opinion, it is kind of hard to explain away without using an author error excuse. This isn't some little detail that can be missed due to great minds being busy with other things. This is potentially (and obviously so) the fate of Middle Earth.

That’s a good catch, CAB. I was not familiar with Olmer’s thread. I’ll post there; the main question here is, “How many people knew about Bilbo’s Ring at the end of The Hobbit,â€� and as RÃ*an has already raised the subject, I was headed toward how many people knew Frodo had the Ring.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

the main question here is, “How many people knew about Bilbo’s Ring at the end of The Hobbit,�

Hmmmm......Yes, I have one possible addition. Kinda depends on how nice a guy Thranduil was......

His poor chief guard!!

[Alcuin]

I’m going to modify my chart (originally in this post)

I don’t know that Gandalf told the Elvenking about Bilbo’s ring, though I strongly suspect he did. After the Dwarves’ escape from his forest fortress, he must have thoroughly investigated the circumstances: any notion that the chief of the guards would deliberately or accidentally free the Dwarves was ridiculous on its face. The Elvenking was both wise and ancient. He must have seen many strange things in his life. It would not take him long to determine that there must have been an invisible thief lurking about his palace, and that this thief was a companion of Thorin & Co. If Gandalf did not at first offer intelligence about Bilbo and his magic ring, I think the Elvenking would ask him if knew anything about an invisible thief, and whether this thief and Bilbo might be one and the same, just to confirm his guess; and if he asked, I think it likely Gandalf would have told him.