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Old 09-12-2003, 02:43 PM   #21
Maedhros
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However, I prefer the version of the Silmarillion.
It appears that CT doesn't agree with you SGH.
From The War of the Jewels: Tale of Years
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In the story that appears in The Silmarillion the outlaws who went with Húrin to Nargothrond were removed, as also was the curse of Mîm; and the only treasure that Húrin took from Nargothrond was the Nauglamîr - which was here supposed to have been made by Dwarves for Finrod Felagund, and to have been the most prized by him of all the hoard of Nargothrond. Húrin was represented as being at last freed from the delusions inspired by Morgoth in his encounter with Melian in Menegroth. The Dwarves who set the Silmaril in the Nauglamîr were already in Menegroth engaged on other works, and it was they who slew Thingol; at that time Melian's power was with-drawn from Neldoreth and Region, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, leaving Doriath unprotected. The ambush and destruction of the Dwarves at Sarn Athrad was given again to Beren and the Green Elves (following my father's letter of 1963 quoted on p. 353, where however he said that 'Beren had no army'), and from the same source the Ents, 'Shepherds of the Trees', were introduced.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 09-12-2003, 04:46 PM   #22
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I have a love-hate relationship with CJRT.

On the one hand, I loathe the repeatedly stupid ways in which he put together contradictiory materials in his publishing of the silmarillion.

On the other hand, I really like the fact that he is reasonable enough to admit his own mistakes. Even if most fans won't.

]:p
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Old 09-12-2003, 05:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
It appears that CT doesn't agree with you SGH.
From The War of the Jewels: Tale of Years
That may well be, and while I do not deny the facts as JRR presents them, there are many versions of many tales presented by JRR, and there are mistakes that were made by CT. I am just stating that I liked the version in the Sil, of the Nauglamir better, than the correction and presentation of the true version from WotJ.
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Old 09-12-2003, 05:30 PM   #24
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This is the type of thing that sends me running scared back to "The Hobbit"!
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Old 09-14-2003, 06:48 AM   #25
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Congrats azalea!

I've always liked your ability for analysis, but this time you have surpassed your own standards. That was a wonderful introduction to the chapter.
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Old 09-14-2003, 08:41 PM   #26
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Light of their Eyes

I think this was symbolic of the spiritual superiority of those who had recently left Aman. Don't forget that the Hosts that the Noldor met were comparatively undeveloped Orcs, which they drove before them like cattle. Too, they were armored with the "Armour of the Elder Days" that Elrond mentions, and the "Swords of the Noldor," made with Aule's help.
As for Fëanor, I think that militarily he overreached himself, when he should have regrouped and hit the Balrogs with a concentrated attack, instead of going one-on-one with Gothmog. Of course, no one had ever seen a Balrog before. I believe Fëanor is still in the Halls of Mandos because the fea cannot leave until they accept Mandos' correction of their faults, and who can see Fëanor doing that?
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Old 09-15-2003, 10:07 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Fat middle
Congrats azalea!

I've always liked your ability for analysis, but this time you have surpassed your own standards. That was a wonderful introduction to the chapter.
Thanks, FM!
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Old 09-16-2003, 07:22 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wayfarer
I have a love-hate relationship with CJRT.

On the one hand, I loathe the repeatedly stupid ways in which he put together contradictiory materials in his publishing of the silmarillion.

On the other hand, I really like the fact that he is reasonable enough to admit his own mistakes. Even if most fans won't.
I truly understand, what you mean, for I had the same feelings about CJRT.
But that changed last year, after the SEE-DVD of FOTR was out.
Now I try to see HoME as a kind of Special Edition, with early storysboards, scenes that have been cut...

Back to topic:
Quote:
"His likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the Halls of Mandos." What does everyone think of this. What if he had come back (a la Glorfindel)? Wow. (Does "likeness" mean there was no one like him, or that he never was seen again? And is he still in the Halls of Mandos?)
The question is, how to read that line? Is it really a final line? Or a line in a book which was written after the 3rd age (Red Book, Bilbo, Sam....)?
If you look at the Sil as one book, it's a final line: He stays in the Halls of Mandos!

I prefer the second question, which has the simple answer, we don't know what happend after the 4th age. Anithing is possible.
And I think, if the Valar let Melkor lose, after his punishment, why should they punish Feanor for ever. Unless he don't want to.
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:57 AM   #29
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And I think, if the Valar let Melkor lose, after his punishment, why should they punish Feanor for ever. Unless he don't want to.
Well, Morgoth's final fate was to be cast into the void. I don't think Feanor, by being kept in the Halls of Mandos, was being punished. It was a place to be healed and redeemed. Feanor was no doubt considered to be a tainted soul, and knowing the nature of Feanor, the healing process could take some time. Also, if Mandosa released Feanor as he was, what else might he have done?
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:29 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, Morgoth's final fate was to be cast into the void.
I was refering to the unchaining of Melkor.
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I don't think Feanor, by being kept in the Halls of Mandos, was being punished. It was a place to be healed and redeemed. Feanor was no doubt considered to be a tainted soul, and knowing the nature of Feanor, the healing process could take some time. Also, if Mandosa released Feanor as he was, what else might he have done?
Ai, I didn't ment, that Namo should release him, before his time has come. And the punishment I think, is more what the souls in Mandos do to themselfs. I was only saying, that IMHO, it is not a final sentance, that he stays in Mandos forever.
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:57 PM   #31
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*/whines that nobody ever listens to him.

As I said above, part of the elven legend regarding the Dagor Dagorad (the last battle, Armageddon) is that afterwards feanor shall be reincarnated, and will with his own hands break the Silmarils so that the two trees may be restored.
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:57 PM   #32
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Neep. Double post.
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Last edited by Wayfarer : 09-16-2003 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 09-16-2003, 06:02 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Wayfarer
*/whines that nobody ever listens to him.

As I said above, part of the elven legend regarding the Dagor Dagorad (the last battle, Armageddon) is that afterwards feanor shall be reincarnated, and will with his own hands break the Silmarils so that the two trees may be restored.
Shall I delete your double post below? I heard what you said, and I know about that, but, I think I remember MM saying something about the Dagor Dagorad is somewhat meaningless and not cannonical. Not sure, so don't hold me to that.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 09-16-2003, 06:10 PM   #34
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Sure, delete it. :P

And my point was that, since the elves held that tale to be true, they obviously didn't conceive of feanor as being locked up for eternity.
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Old 09-18-2003, 10:06 AM   #35
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Don't you think it was more a hope that Fëanor would be healed and that he would see the error of his ways in refusing Yavanna's previous request that he allow the destruction of the Silmarils to restore the Two Trees? It is said to be a legend, not a prophesy.
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Old 09-19-2003, 03:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finarwe
I prefer the second question, which has the simple answer, we don't know what happend after the 4th age. Anithing is possible.
And I think, if the Valar let Melkor lose, after his punishment, why should they punish Feanor for ever. Unless he don't want to.
I think Fëanor was not allowed to be reborn both because his fëa was too tainted, but also because he had already fulfilled his task in the world, to preserve the light of the trees in the Sïlmarils, and to get the Ñoldor out of Valinor and back to Middle-Earth.
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It is said to be a legend, not a prophesy.
It is called the Prophecy of Mandos in the Quenta Noldorinwa.
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Old 09-19-2003, 02:11 PM   #37
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It is called the Prophecy of Mandos in the Quenta Noldorinwa.
Ah. Fëanor the Gnome.
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