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Old 05-28-2004, 01:41 PM   #21
Lefty Scaevola
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All the sons of Valar and return of Turin stuff is obselete mythology, rejected or not included in either the published SIL. or JRRT's plaaned revision shown in 'Myths Transformed'.
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Old 05-29-2004, 12:05 AM   #22
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In Tolkien's earlier writings, I believe he intended men to go to their own halls in Mandos. So Turin's returning wasn't a big deal in that mythos. It dissapears later, along with the references to Turin returning.
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Old 06-02-2004, 08:55 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
The thing is that it how can Túrin return from the Halls of Mandos, aren't men supposed to wander outside Arda and go to the Halls only for a brief period of time?
I always had the idea that all races had seperate Halls with Mandos. The Elves remained in their Halls until they were re-embodied. I suppose the Halls for Men were a bit like a pit stop before they took off beyond the bounds of the world. Didn't Beren come to Mandos' Halls and refuse to leave before Lúthien had come? Perhaps some men remained in the Halls longer than most, until their affairs with the world were well and truly finished. Túrin's dealings with Morgoth would have been far from finished at the time of his death.
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:18 PM   #24
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Quote:
I always had the idea that all races had seperate Halls with Mandos. The Elves remained in their Halls until they were re-embodied. I suppose the Halls for Men were a bit like a pit stop before they took off beyond the bounds of the world. Didn't Beren come to Mandos' Halls and refuse to leave before Lúthien had come? Perhaps some men remained in the Halls longer than most, until their affairs with the world were well and truly finished. Túrin's dealings with Morgoth would have been far from finished at the time of his death.
I always believed that Men only dwell in their Halls of Mandos for a certain period of time. Remember the gift of Ilúvatar was for Men to be free after their death from the world, unlike the Eldar, if Túrin had to dwell in the Halls of Mandos for thousands of years until the end of the world, he would have been denied his gift of Men.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 06-02-2004, 05:32 PM   #25
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Thanks to everyone who left some comments. I'm much clearer on the choice given to the half-elven and feel satisfied about Tuor's fate.
I am again awed by all the knowledge of the posters. I am glad to have made even a small contribution to this wonderful project.
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:32 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
I always believed that Men only dwell in their Halls of Mandos for a certain period of time. Remember the gift of Ilúvatar was for Men to be free after their death from the world, unlike the Eldar, if Túrin had to dwell in the Halls of Mandos for thousands of years until the end of the world, he would have been denied his gift of Men.
Or Túrin himself could have refused to make use of the gift of Men until his affaires were dealt with. He always was a stubborn guy...
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Old 06-03-2004, 08:32 AM   #27
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Originally posted by Elvet
I am again awed by all the knowledge of the posters. I am glad to have made even a small contribution to this wonderful project.
I second that.
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Old 12-11-2018, 07:08 AM   #28
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I was wondering whether the Valar hadn't boxed themselves into a corner with Mandos' Doom. It seems the Noldorin exiles had to be utterly defeated and without any hope before an emissary would be admitted. Which seems... more than a little unproductive.

Turgon had sent emissaries who were all shipwrecked and killed and the lone survivor was sent to remind Turgon he should leave Gondolin. Okay... but then what? If Turgon had listened to Ulmo's advice, what exactly would it have gotten him? His people would have been without a safe place beyond the walls of Gondolin, at the mercy of Morgoth and even be more vulnerable to treason. Or were they all expected to heap on the refugee isle of Balar (which would have been very overpopulated by then, I'm thinking) and do what exactly? Sit and wait until Morgoth decided to at last sicc the flying dragons on them and burn their sorry remains off the island? There is absolutely no indication an emissary would be listened to even then. I know Tolkien blamed pride for Turgon's decision to stay put, but I'm starting to see Turgon's point a little. He didn't have all that much alternative. Knowing your only hope comes from the West is all fine and dandy but much good does it do you when they won't send help even when you ask for it. And Turgon did ask.

The way the Valar are talking, Eärendil and Elwing were literally the only ones in the whole of Middle-earth who could speak for both Kindreds and they wouldn't have gotten there without a Silmaril. That's a pretty narrow definition to meet to hang the survival of the Two Kindreds in Middle-earth on.

And as far as I remember no one ever said from the start that whoever came to plead for pity had to be of and speak for both Kindreds. It makes it rather difficult to play if no one tells you all the rules from the start.

If Elwing had been waylaid and the Silmaril had ended up with the Fëanoreans, would Eärendil still have made it alone? Or would the Valar really have let Morgoth eradicate the Eldar in Middle-earth? So that all the 'beauty' that came from their suffering was lost from the world and, never making it into song and thus utterly forgotten? It kinda feels that way as they left no other alternative open.

Also, Men hadn't done any crime of the level of the Noldorin exiles, so why didn't they get a break either? Could Men have sent an emissary for their own, saying to the Valar 'I know you're still angry with them Elves but, we Men, kinda live in Middle-earth too and we think Morgoth sucks and would like to be rid of him, thank you very much?' Would the Valar have listened to that? Probably not, because they had happily made it forbidden for mortal men to set foot in Aman in the first place! Gee, thanks guys.

Which brings me to the point of Eärendil's choice. The Valar had already ruled that he and Elwing never would be allowed to leave Aman and that mortal Men could not set foot on Aman with impunity. Which led to the question of whether Eärendil and Elwing should be ranked among Eldar or Men. Now if Eärendil had made the choice after his heart, rather than follow Elwing, what would it have gotten him exactly? A mortal men in a place he wasn't allowed to be but was fated to be anyhow. Hmmm, if you ask me, The Valar actually were lucky he let Elwing shoose first or they would have been in a worse legal tangle.
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