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Old 10-14-2014, 01:15 AM   #1
AndMorgothCame.
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Gwaihir wings Gandalf to Lorien

ONE DAY AFTER THE FELLOWSHIP LEAVE!??

I was reading through the appendices, and after over a decade of reading the Lord of the Rings almost yearly, I realized this. So if they would've stayed one day longer (which would've made no difference to them, since the flow of time in Lothlorien is hardly noticed), they would've been reunited with Gandalf and learned of his trials with the Balrog. Then what would've happened? Would the Fellowship have ever been broken? And if the Fellowship hadn't been broken, could they have ultimately failed the quest? Unanswerable of course, but interesting nonetheless.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:40 AM   #2
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Yeah, I noticed that too. One day, talk about a close shave! Still, it's difficult to say how things would have changed. It only took ten days after they left Lothlórien for the Fellowship to break up and by that time Gandalf had not managed to catch up, despite having clear knowledge of the path and manner the Fellowship was travelling in.

That could mean that Gandalf needed to stay in Lothlórien for a few days anyway, which if would result in slowing the Fellowship too if they still had been present. That delay may have led to the orcs being closer and the ambush happening on a different place, or maybe missing the Fellowship all together. All things are possible.

It's equally hard to predict how Boromir would have reacted with Gandalf present. I tend to think even he would not have prevented Boromir's attempt to take the Ring. Even Galadriel saw it coming, but could do nothing other than give warning. Ultimatedly it was up to Boromir himself to pick a path.

Funny, all things considered, how so many things in the story depend on Gandalf being delayed.
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:23 PM   #3
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Nothing would change. Gandalf did not want to go with the Fellowship in the first place.
He was looking for an excuse, like Elrond's okay nod
even when he was pressed to give a definite answer.
He planned to pull-off the same disappearance arrangement with the Fellowship, as he managed to do with Thorin's group. Moria was a perfect place for a such caper of getting off the hook and returning to Valinor peaceful gardens. ( But (alas!) he was sent back again! )
So this is why he did not form far reached plans " We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then... -" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)... Seems it's no reason in withholding the course of the journey from the company, unless you know about an inevitable split of the Fellowship .
According to Galadriel's and Gandalf's "design", the Ring should again disappear forever in the waters of the river, but Gandalf's presence would require him to interfere with such "misfortune". So, even if he would happily pass Moria unscathed, he would be finding the reason to stay behind and letting the events to take its planned course.
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Old 10-14-2014, 02:33 PM   #4
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Oof!
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:16 PM   #5
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One day..

in whose reckoning? In the time-distorted ...

Elven ring-wielded ...

reflected-glow of the Elder days, that was LothLorien?

In this question, from the outset, can we ascertain, in terms of timelines...and "time"... are we judging by the Red book appendixes, and if so, by the assumptions or (possibly mortal misconceptions) of it's authors?

If so, perhaps we can move on to the idea that "time" isnt a linear expression , nor in no way a "one size fits all" contant concrete concept, most especially as "time" - that is to say the value of any given time... can be deemed to be different between Elf, and Man, or Hobbit?

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Old 10-21-2014, 05:38 AM   #6
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Well, no Butterbeer, I don't think you could be too correct in assuming that? Time is fairly concrete when dealing with Middle Earth (the Sun and the Moon have made it so). Just because it's essence is changed in different places doesn't mean there isn't a true flow of time, one that is unhindered by the magic of Lothlorien and other places.

Yes, I'm using the appendices. Here is a link to the pic of the exact entry, just so you know what I'm seeing: http://i.imgur.com/Zw4XSE1.jpg

Interpreting it any other way than the Fellowship being a day's march ahead of Gwaihir and Gandalf in Lorien seems too unsubstantial to even declaim. Heck I'm beginning to think you're just looking to split hairs. Don't split my hairs bro.
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Old 10-22-2014, 01:53 AM   #7
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AndMorgothCame, I cannot see your pic very well. But that is of no matter: in Appendix B of RotK, we find, as you say,
Quote:
February 14 - The Mirror of Galadriel. Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.
February 16 - Farewell to Lórien. Gollum in hiding on the west bank observes the departure.
February 17 - Gwaihir bears Gandalf to Lórien.
In Letters of JRR Tolkien, 156 “To Robert Murray”, Tolkien wrote,
Quote:
[Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority [i.e., Eru] had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. “Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done”. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the “gods” whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed “out of thought and time”. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, “unclothed like a child” (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel’s power is not divine, and his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.
Eru is, then, this “other power” at work that Gandalf first elucidated to Frodo at Bag End:
Quote:
“There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. .. [W]hen its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!

“Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. …”
This feeds into Tolkien’s concept of eucatastrophe. Several things happen as a result of Gandalf’s missing the Company of the Ring by one day:
  • Aragorn takes on the role of leader of the Company, preparing him for his role as leader of the Armies of the West and the King Returned.
  • Boromir’s treacherous heart is exposed; however, as a result of his accession Aragorn’s command (“Boromir! … [H]elp now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least…”), as a good steward should, he is redeemed, though at heavy penance.
  • Frodo and Sam sneak off alone, allowing Sauron’s gaze to follow Aragorn instead. I think it quite likely that Aragorn, a Númenórean and the rightful king of Gondor, could see nothing upon Amon Hen because Sauron’s “hand”, his evil presence, was upon the place clouding his view. Sauron knew someone had put on the Ring, and searched for Frodo, just missing him due to Gandalf’s intervention; but when his gaze returned, he probably saw a Man instead, though he knew not yet who he was.
  • Aragorn and Éomer would brought together under trying circumstances, a lifelong friendship was forged, so that the old alliance between Gondor and Rohan was renewed into the Fourth Age.
  • Legolas and Gimli completed forging their friendship which had begun in earnest in Lórien.
  • Merry and Pippin are hauled to Fangorn, beginning the downfall of Isengard. The threat of Saruman’s treachery was sconced, and a three-front war against Gondor (Isengard, Minas Morgul, and Umbar via the coastlands) was prevented.
  • Gandalf and Aragorn found themselves in Meduseld, where they succored Théoden and the Rohirrim, set about preserving Rohan, enabled the cavalry assault that prevented the overthrow of Minas Tirith, and set Éowyn on course to confront the Lord of the Nazgûl.
  • Using the palant*r, Aragorn upset Sauron’s schedule, threw him off balance, and with the Dead Men of Dunharrow was able to eliminate the second of Sauron’s three fronts against Gondor, the attack by Umbar on Lebennin.

    And finally…
  • Frodo took Gollum as his guide into Mordor. They entered via Cirith Ungol, which even Gandalf had apparently not considered, or at least not thought possible. Sauron failed to perceive the plan set by Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn until the very end.
I think we could argue that none of these things would have happened, or only a few of them, had Gandalf joined the Company in Lórien before it left.
  • As Tolkien noted, “his healing in Lórien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment”, and he needed several days to recover. The Company’s departure would have been fatally delayed.
  • Saruman knew of Gandalf’s and the Balrog’s apparent demise in Moria. (This we knew from Tolkien’s notes published in by Hammond and Scull in Reader's Companion in notes for p. 416:
    Quote:
    January 15 - … Messengers leave Moria to Isengard, bringing news of events to Saruman … Messages also go to Barad-dûr…
    So Sauron also knew about Gandalf and the Balrog, but cut off from Saruman, he was for a short while unaware that Gandalf had returned. Had the Company left Lórien with Gandalf, that surprise would have been lost.
  • Rohan would have fallen to Saruman.
  • The Rangers of Arnor could not have joined Aragorn in Rohan.
  • Aragorn would never have entered the Paths of the Dead, Lebennin would have fallen to the Corsairs, leaving Gondor to succumb to a three-front war.
  • Had Gandalf attempted to lead Frodo into Mordor, it might have been easier for Sauron not only to have found the Ring, but discerned their plan to destroy it.

We could go on. But suffice it to say that it seems that one day in Lórien proved critically important.
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Old 10-22-2014, 03:11 AM   #8
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This is an answer I was looking for, and then some. Thanks for the depth of details, I agree almost completely, and it helped my point towards the idea of that one day making a HUGE difference.
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Old 10-22-2014, 09:56 AM   #9
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And finally…
Frodo took Gollum as his guide into Mordor. They entered via Cirith Ungol, which even Gandalf had apparently not considered, or at least not thought possible. Sauron failed to perceive the plan set by Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn until the very end.

...

Had Gandalf attempted to lead Frodo into Mordor, it might have been easier for Sauron not only to have found the Ring, but discerned their plan to destroy it.
Not only this, but even if Gandalf + hobbits had reached Mt Doom undiscovered, would they have been able to destroy the Ring? I find it unlikely... even if Gandalf could do it, he would have to get the Ring from Frodo first. I can't quite picture Gandalf biting off a finger

To be serious though, I think that the Ring was too powerful to be destroyed by anything less than itself. Sauron's own path leads the Hobbits up Mt Doom. When Frodo is nearly beaten by Gollum near the top, the Ring gives him the power to fight Gollum off. And of course, it destroys itself when it holds Gollum to his oath so when he wrests the Ring from Frodo they are both cast into the Fire. This is a running theme throughout Tolkien's work, and may be as much an intrinsic part of Middle Earth as a characteristic of Tolkien's storytelling. If Gandalf had been around, Gollum may not have been present at the Fires of Doom.
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Old 11-01-2014, 11:04 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame
Well, no Butterbeer, I don't think you could be too correct in assuming that? Time is fairly concrete when dealing with Middle Earth (the Sun and the Moon have made it so). Just because it's essence is changed in different places doesn't mean there isn't a true flow of time, one that is unhindered by the magic of Lothlorien and other places.
And in my opinion Legolas agrees with you in his statement after the company leaves Lorien (generally speaking, in response to Sam's confusion).

Legolas the Elf

Moreover, it is clear in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings that Tolkien did consider that actual time be different in Lorien, but this was problematic and he abandoned the idea. Lorien may be 'timeless' in that time does not seem to affect it, but that is about preservation power, not time itself.

In the essay Aman (Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien will explain that time in Aman was actual time -- if 100 years pass by in Middle-earth so 100 years pass by in Aman, but change and growth in those 100 years in Aman was slower, and thus more in accord with Elvish perception. Compare to:

Quote:
Legolas stirred in his boat. 'Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; 'but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'

'But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'
The wearing of things is slowed, not time itself. That's what Tolkien landed on; and the Appendices, as you say, can be relied upon for these dates.
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Old 11-03-2014, 04:14 PM   #11
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Well, no Butterbeer, I don't think you could be too correct in assuming that? Time is fairly concrete when dealing with Middle Earth (the Sun and the Moon have made it so). Just because it's essence is changed in different places doesn't mean there isn't a true flow of time, one that is unhindered by the magic of Lothlorien and other places.

Yes, I'm using the appendices. Here is a link to the pic of the exact entry, just so you know what I'm seeing: http://i.imgur.com/Zw4XSE1.jpg

Interpreting it any other way than the Fellowship being a day's march ahead of Gwaihir and Gandalf in Lorien seems too unsubstantial to even declaim. Heck I'm beginning to think you're just looking to split hairs. Don't split my hairs bro.
Splitting such fine hairs, would require a Scalpel so delicate that it
would require forging by The House of Fëanor, surely.. ?

Celebrimbor perhaps?

But i note you confirm the use of the Appendices. On that part, then - it it is fairly clear ref the timeline and, as you say at the outset, quite surprising that Gandalf is borne to Lothlorien the day after they leave: certainly not something i'd noticed either.

That doesn't however make my question any the less interesting, nor valid.

Despite Alcuin's somewhat airy and rather controversial tome on the 22nd of October one doesn't need either an eucatastrophe, nor a superbly fine scalpel to raise umbrage with the concept that time is purportedly experienced linearly between species. To claim it is, would seem disingenuous on the basis outlined - i.e a Day is determined by the sun and the moon. A set period - 24 hours.
On this basis- if we compare the experiential concept of "time" experienced by an Ent, with say a Mayfly: the relative concepts of Time such as a Year, or a day, an hour, or a second... will vary incredibly.

Then we have Gandalf stepping (or moving- being moved) right out of time- quite literally.
This is pretty indisputable. However, suddenly the assumed idea that Time is by definition concretely linear and immutable is clearly open for debate.

Where - or rather when Gandalf was re-inserted back into the timeline would appear to be at entirely the choice of whomever sent him back.

Presumably then it was - according to Alcuin - essentially ordained that Gandalf would miss them.

Which leaves us with the question of the perception of Time, and brings us onto free-will...

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Old 11-03-2014, 05:59 PM   #12
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Which leaves us with the question of the perception of Time, and brings us onto free-will...
The perception of time is another matter entirely. It goes straight to the point of the difference in outlook for Ents and Elves as opposed to Men and Hobbits and Dwarves. Nor is the perception of time outside our ordinary, everyday experience.

As children, most of us were given “time out”: standing in a corner, sitting in a chair, what-have-you, as correction for our behavior. Five minutes in a corner for a four-year-old is as like age in Purgatory; five minutes to a teenager more a bother; and five minutes to an adult simply a few moments to recollect one’s thoughts.

The reason is quite clear: small children have lived a short time, and that “time out” is a noticeable portion of it. To a middle-aged or older adult, it is merely part of the long stream, as Legolas might put it. (And did, as they floated along the stream of Anduin.)

So also for the Dúnedain of Númenor, who argued with the Eldar of Eressëa over whether or not their mortality was a blessing, a curse, or the will of Eru. The Eldar lacked a palpable fear of termination; this reappears in the tale “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” (“Debate of Finrod and Andreth”) in Morgoth’s Ring: they feared their end at the end of Arda, but it was far enough away in time that it did not influence their daily thought or actions. That very matter arises again in “The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen” – Arwen is not ready to pass from life to death, though Aragorn, mortal from birth, is reconciled to it.

To Treebeard, five centuries of the Rohirrim in Calenardhon is a short time; to the Rohirrim, it is so long that it is time out of memory. Gandalf knew more about the history of Hobbits than they themselves; but to the Hobbits of the Shire, history began with Marcho and Blanco settling the Shire. Legolas called his companions “children”. Aragorn complained to Gandalf that he was “no longer young even in the reckoning of the Men of the Ancient Houses.”

Even to Denethor, “his” Gondor began with the ruling stewardship of Mardil after Eärnur passed into Morgul Vale. Faramir looked to a longer history that Denethor disdained.

Perception of time is the point:
Quote:
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The wearing of things is slowed, not time itself. That's what Tolkien landed on; and the Appendices, as you say, can be relied upon for these dates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer View Post
Then we have Gandalf stepping (or moving- being moved) right out of time- quite literally.
This is pretty indisputable. However, suddenly the assumed idea that Time is by definition concretely linear and immutable is clearly open for debate.
I think you’re correct, Butterbeer. I agree that Gandalf “stepp[ed] (or … moved) right out of time”. He was dead. The body he had inhabited as Gandalf the Grey was deceased. If we follow Tolkien’s letter, as an Ainu, Gandalf-Olórin left Arda altogether, and returned to Eru. Eru sent him back to complete his mission, which was expanded, and Gandalf was “enhanced” in order to accomplish that. Eru is not in time. Time is in Him: it a construction of Eru’s; in the old way of saying it, still pertinent, we would say, Time is a creature of Eru’s. It is something He created, something he controls. He is not in it. One of the points of confusion in the aforementioned “Debate of Finrod and Andreth” is that the Edain believed that Eru Himself would enter into Arda to correct its marring by Morgoth, a belief both Andreth, who reported it, and Finrod, who heard it, found utterly astounding:
Quote:
[S]aid Andreth, … “How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and than which He is beyond measure greater? Can the singer enter into his tale or the designer into his picture?”

“He is already in it, as well as outside,” said Finrod. “But indeed the “in-dwelling” and the “out-living” are not in the same mode.”

“Truly,” said Andreth. “So may Eru in that mode be present in Eä that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Eä?”

“Ask me not,” said Finrod. “These things are beyond the compass of the wisdom of the Eldar, or of the Valar maybe. But I doubt that our words may mislead us, and that when you say “greater” you think of the dimensions of Arda, in which the greater vessel may not be contained in the less. But such words may not be used of the Measureless. …”
This reflects that classic Christian (and Jewish) belief that God is outside Time, and unbounded by it.
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Where - or rather when Gandalf was re-inserted back into the timeline would appear to be at entirely the choice of whomever sent him back.

Presumably then it was - according to Alcuin - essentially ordained that Gandalf would miss them.
Precisely.

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That doesn't however make my question any the less interesting, nor valid.
What was your question? Was it this?
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Originally Posted by Butterbeer View Post
in whose reckoning? In the time-distorted ...

Elven ring-wielded ...

reflected-glow of the Elder days, that was LothLorien?
The wearing of time slowed, as Galin noted. The Eldar, as Tolkien put it, were like embalmers, slowing change in Middle-earth, because change grieved them. Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, slowed the effects of time, but not its passage.

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Despite Alcuin's somewhat airy and rather controversial tome…
Ah! I’d no idea I’d ignited a controversy! Well, good. It’s been rather slow here lately: a brisk series of posts to put a controversy to rest would invigorate us all. Touché!
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Old 11-04-2014, 02:46 PM   #13
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Ah! I’d no idea I’d ignited a controversy! Well, good. It’s been rather slow here lately: a brisk series of posts to put a controversy to rest would invigorate us all. Touché!
.

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.
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...............................................Votre arrogance rend cette une affaire d'honneur.




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Perception of time is the point:
C'est Indubitably so, Monsieur Alcuin

**********

For what matters one day?

And for whom, and for why?

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Originally Posted by AndMorgothCame. View Post
ONE DAY AFTER THE FELLOWSHIP LEAVE!??

I was reading through the appendices, and after over a decade of reading the Lord of the Rings almost yearly, I realized this. So if they would've stayed one day longer (which would've made no difference to them, since the flow of time in Lothlorien is hardly noticed), they would've been reunited with Gandalf and learned of his trials with the Balrog. Then what would've happened? Would the Fellowship have ever been broken? And if the Fellowship hadn't been broken, could they have ultimately failed the quest? Unanswerable of course, but interesting nonetheless.
What IF questions, are of course interesting in their own way, but methinks AndMorgothCame asks, in part, and possibly indirectly: THE One Question to rule them all -

All that is missing, for this to be a truly interesting, nay Key question - is Time and Will.

*****~~~~******

in necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas

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Old 11-04-2014, 05:07 PM   #14
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En Garde

Votre arrogance rend cette une affaire d'honneur
Wonderful! Butterbeer, you made me laugh, and I hadn’t laughed in days. Thank you!

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For what matters one day?

And for whom, and for why?
I made a list in my “somewhat airy and rather controversial tome”. Is it objectionable? Controversial?
For your convenience, the list of things that did happen has been numbered; the list of things that did not happen, lettered. Now you may pick them apart more easily.
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Several things happen as a result of Gandalf’s missing the Company of the Ring by one day:
  1. Aragorn takes on the role of leader of the Company, preparing him for his role as leader of the Armies of the West and the King Returned.
  2. Boromir’s treacherous heart is exposed; however, as a result of his accession Aragorn’s command (“Boromir! … [H]elp now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least…”), as a good steward should, he is redeemed, though at heavy penance.
  3. Frodo and Sam sneak off alone, allowing Sauron’s gaze to follow Aragorn instead. I think it quite likely that Aragorn, a Númenórean and the rightful king of Gondor, could see nothing upon Amon Hen because Sauron’s “hand”, his evil presence, was upon the place clouding his view. Sauron knew someone had put on the Ring, and searched for Frodo, just missing him due to Gandalf’s intervention; but when his gaze returned, he probably saw a Man instead, though he knew not yet who he was.
  4. Aragorn and Éomer would brought together under trying circumstances, a lifelong friendship was forged, so that the old alliance between Gondor and Rohan was renewed into the Fourth Age.
  5. Legolas and Gimli completed forging their friendship which had begun in earnest in Lórien.
  6. Merry and Pippin are hauled to Fangorn, beginning the downfall of Isengard. The threat of Saruman’s treachery was sconced, and a three-front war against Gondor (Isengard, Minas Morgul, and Umbar via the coastlands) was prevented.
  7. Gandalf and Aragorn found themselves in Meduseld, where they succored Théoden and the Rohirrim, set about preserving Rohan, enabled the cavalry assault that prevented the overthrow of Minas Tirith, and set Éowyn on course to confront the Lord of the Nazgûl.
  8. Using the palant*r, Aragorn upset Sauron’s schedule, threw him off balance, and with the Dead Men of Dunharrow was able to eliminate the second of Sauron’s three fronts against Gondor, the attack by Umbar on Lebennin.

    And finally…
  9. Frodo took Gollum as his guide into Mordor. They entered via Cirith Ungol, which even Gandalf had apparently not considered, or at least not thought possible. Sauron failed to perceive the plan set by Gandalf, Elrond, and Aragorn until the very end.
I think we could argue that none of these things would have happened, or only a few of them, had Gandalf joined the Company in Lórien before it left.
  1. … The Company’s departure would have been fatally delayed.
  2. Saruman knew of Gandalf’s and the Balrog’s apparent demise in Moria. … Sauron also knew about Gandalf and the Balrog, but cut off from Saruman, he was for a short while unaware that Gandalf had returned. Had the Company left Lórien with Gandalf, that surprise would have been lost.
  3. Rohan would have fallen to Saruman.
  4. The Rangers of Arnor could not have joined Aragorn in Rohan.
  5. Aragorn would never have entered the Paths of the Dead, Lebennin would have fallen to the Corsairs, leaving Gondor to succumb to a three-front war.
  6. Had Gandalf attempted to lead Frodo into Mordor, it might have been easier for Sauron not only to have found the Ring, but discerned their plan to destroy it.
Your turn, good Butterbeer.

Or did I, perchance, miss your point entirely? (In which case I must stand for the shot.)

Last edited by Alcuin : 11-04-2014 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 11-16-2014, 03:54 AM   #15
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[S]aid Andreth, … “How could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and than which He is beyond measure greater?
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