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Old 04-13-2007, 02:57 PM   #1
Peter_20
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Tom Bombadil The Silmarillion > The Bible

I hope this doesn't count as sacrilege or anything, so let me start off with stressing that I perfectly respect religious people; of course I do.

I'm also perfectly aware of the fact the The Bible is much, much more important than The Silmarillion will ever be.
Still, I can't really say The Bible really fit my tastes - there's just something about the atmosphere that I'm not that fond of.
I know it's an extremely important piece of work, and I know that millions of people feel a huge respect for it (as do I), but... no - the atmosphere just doesn't appeal to me.

This is where The Silmarillion comes in.
That book reminds in many aspects about The Bible (The Creation, the gods etc.); but The Silmarillion possesses a kind of atmosphere that I like much better.
The Silmarillion's got more... attitude.
I've never seen characters like Fëanor, Fingolfin, Aredhel and Eöl in The Bible before; those characters are really cool, in a way that I like a lot.
I don't know how to clearly explain this, so this whole post might seem rather vague; but I hope I've at least partly expressed my opinions on the subject.

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Old 04-13-2007, 04:02 PM   #2
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Ainulindalë is a beautiful piece, and is one of Tolkien's best-written works. Genesis, by comparision, lacks in detail a bit and doesn't really paint the picture as full as it could have been.

But hey, it was god's first story. He got better.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:39 PM   #3
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Silmarillion sure doesn't lack drama. We would actually need the letters, LotR and various HoME to understand that Eru's support and involvement is far more deep and present than it appears there. The Bible is far more optimistic. Overall, I would choose message over aesthetics .
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Old 04-15-2007, 02:38 PM   #4
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I grieve that the parts taking place in Aman are so extremely unknown.
I mean, the atmosphere over there sure seems great, what with the tower of Ingwë, the lights of the two Trees, the Tengwar of Fëanor, the enmity between Fëanor and his half-brothers, Lórien... everything!

If it were possible, and if my family and all my friends could go with me, I'd like to live there.
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Old 04-16-2007, 05:21 AM   #5
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Just thought it worth noting, BTW, that the Bible actually happened... When you talk about like and dislike, even if you are a complete non-believer in God and you regard all talk of him as fantasy/fiction, you have to treat the Bible as a history book.
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Old 04-16-2007, 06:45 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownjenkins
Ainulindalë is a beautiful piece, and is one of Tolkien's best-written works. Genesis, by comparision, lacks in detail a bit and doesn't really paint the picture as full as it could have been.

But hey, it was god's first story. He got better.
Heheh, nice one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecthelion
Just thought it worth noting, BTW, that the Bible actually happened... When you talk about like and dislike, even if you are a complete non-believer in God and you regard all talk of him as fantasy/fiction, you have to treat the Bible as a history book.
That in itself is a whole different debate, ecthelion.
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Old 04-17-2007, 12:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecthelion
Just thought it worth noting, BTW, that the Bible actually happened... When you talk about like and dislike, even if you are a complete non-believer in God and you regard all talk of him as fantasy/fiction, you have to treat the Bible as a history book.
This thread didn't concern belief or disbelief, though; it concerned my thinking The Silmarillion has a cooler atmosphere.

The most Bible-like thing in The Silmarillion is probably Aulë making the Dwarves and then having this chat with Eru Ilúvatar.
That scene somehow reminded me of The Bible.

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Old 04-17-2007, 08:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecthelion
Just thought it worth noting, BTW, that the Bible actually happened... When you talk about like and dislike, even if you are a complete non-believer in God and you regard all talk of him as fantasy/fiction, you have to treat the Bible as a history book.
The bible actually happened? Intertesting. Granted the Bible is a historically influental collection of stories; however it is not history. The old testament does in fact orbit the historical world of pre-hellenic Palestine, though its stories were never meant to be historical documents. And do not get me started on the veracity of the new testament - a weak coglmoration of ancient myths wrapped around a first century rabbi.

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Old 04-18-2007, 09:13 AM   #9
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The bible should be considered a history book in the same way as Homer's Odyssey. It contains elements of history, but should be taken with a grain of salt (or ten ).
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:37 PM   #10
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If the Bible is like the Odyssey then why is there at least as much if not more evedence for it than the history books being used in public/private schools?
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Old 04-20-2007, 10:28 PM   #11
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Because a lot more people believe the bible is true than the Odyssey.
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:20 AM   #12
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But there are archaeological findings of cities in the Bible where the Bible said they were.
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Old 04-21-2007, 12:02 PM   #13
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So too in the Odessey and the Iliad. But that doesn't mean everything in the books happened exactly as discribed.
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:56 PM   #14
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This is not directed at any post in particular - but is still a caution.

If this thread discusses comparisons and contrasts between the Bible and the Silmarillion, including mentions of other works, that's fine. However - it should not become an attack on the Bible (EDIT: or even a defense of the Bible - although this is what you'll normally get in response to an attack). If it does, I will close it.

After all - we've got all of GM for those kinds of discussions. This is the Silmarillion forum.
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Old 04-21-2007, 06:40 PM   #15
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I would never attack the bible.

Though, the subject alone probably places it in GM.

I was being a little flip, but what Eärniel said, it's event by event. You don't find one, or ten, seemingly historical events in a book and thus say, "it is all true". The Odyssey contains a lot of verifiable material, and a lot which is not. The same can be said for the bible.

The Silmarillion, on the other hand, is 100% fabricated, eventhough Tolkien did a very through job of it.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:58 AM   #16
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Depends by what you mean by "never happened." If you read the Bible like a science textbook or a children's story, then perhaps it indeed "never happened." If you read it as metaphor and poetry, it's true regardless of whether it "really happened or not."

The Garden of Eden story is the perfect example. 2,000 years ago, there was a Talmudic discussion of this very question: did it "really happen?" The discussion concluded, as many such do, accepting both points of view as to whether the story was a metaphoric teaching tool or physical reality that occurred but agreeing that it's lessons are real and true. And they are. Growing up, leaving the womb and childhood, and becoming an adult are real.

Returning to the Simarillion, to me, I can't even compare the Simarillion to the Bible and am somewhat amazed by some of the comments here to that effect but I'm willing to agree on this: let's resume this discussion in 3 millenia. If people then still even remember the Simarillion I'll count it in the Simarillion proponents' favor.

As for characters and character development, folks like Abraham, Joseph, Moses, and David will be remembered and discussed as long as humans exist on the earth. I don't feel equally so about anyone in the Simarillion.

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Old 04-22-2007, 12:16 PM   #17
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The Silmarillion is an awesome book, and I love to read it.



But I didn't even think it was possible to compare it with the Bible. The Silmarillion is a book written by Tolkien that was entirely made up. The Bible is a book written by God through men, and is TRUTH, Wether your prepared to accept it or not.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren One-Hand
The Silmarillion is an awesome book, and I love to read it.



But I didn't even think it was possible to compare it with the Bible. The Silmarillion is a book written by Tolkien that was entirely made up. The Bible is a book written by God through men, and is TRUTH, Wether your prepared to accept it or not.
The reason I compare these books with each other is because I always thought The Silmarillion resembled The Bible a lot in its style, what with the Creation and the children of The Almighty and so on.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:30 PM   #19
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There are some points of comparison, I think. If you look at the lay-out of both books, for example. Both start at the very beginning, with the creation of the world, both have seperate chapters that don't necessarily follow each other perfectly, but together create an extensive history of the different races/tribes.

Although one could argue that in the Silmarillion, this was unplanned. if Tolkien had been able to finish the book as he no doubt would have wanted, it would (I'm sure) have been vastly different.

And in the sense that both books could be regarded as a sort of history book (regardless of what was invented); they both have genealogies, long migrations of nations, destinies and wonders. And Tolkien obviously used some story elements and themes of christian mythology in the Silmarillion, as he did from many mythologies, so those would feel familiar too.
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Old 04-22-2007, 05:05 PM   #20
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All religions borrowed from the metaphors and myth of their predecesors. You can no more have a new religion speak to the hearts of its people without doing so than you can have a new language with no roots in prior linguistics.

The Simarillion obviously has enough similarities with the Bible just as the Biblical flood story has enough similarities with it Bablylonian/Akkadian predecessor to say, in each case, the latter's author was influenced by the former. Then you need to look at the divergences.

That topic definitely belongs elsewhere so this post is done!

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