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Old 01-21-2004, 08:12 PM   #1
Maedhros
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Chapter 19: Of Beren and Lúthien

Gorlim the Unhappy
From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Quote:
Now among the companions of Barahir was Gorlim son of Angrim. His wife was named Eilinel, and their love was great, ere evil befell. But Gorlim returning from the war upon the marches found his house plundered and forsaken, and his wife gone; whether slain or taken he knew not. Then he fled to Barahir, and of companions his he was the most fierce and desperate; but doubt gnawed his heart, thinking that perhaps Eilinel was not dead. At times he would depart alone and secretly, and visit his house that stood amid the fields and woods he had once possessed; and this became known to the servants of Morgoth.
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There he saw Eilinel, and her face was worn with grief and hunger, and it seemed to him that he heard her voice lamenting that he had forsaken her. But even as he cried aloud the light was blown out in the wind; wolves howled, and on his shoulders he felt suddenly the heavy hands of Sauron's hunters. Thus Gorlim was ensnared; and taking him to their camp they tormented, seeking to learn the hidings of Barahir and all his ways. But nothing would Gorlim tell. Then they promised him that he should be released and restored to Eilinel, if he would yield; and being at last worn with pain, and yearning for his wife, he faltered. Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'
And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.
Than Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'
Of course as we know, Sauron killed Gorlim, but then an interesting thing happened:
Quote:
Then Beren was aware in his dream of a form that came to him across the water, and it was a wraith of Gorlim; and it spoke to him declaring his treachery and death, and bade him make haste to warn his father. Then Beren awoke, and sped through the night, and came back to the lair of the outlaws on the second morning. But as he drew near the carrion-birds rose from the ground and sat in the alder-trees beside Tarn Aeluin, and croaked in mockery.
For a more details, we can turn to the Lay of Leithian
Quote:
There saw he that a shadow quivered
far out upon the water wan,
and grew to a faint form thereon
that glided o'er the silent lake,
and coming slowly, softly spake
and sadly said: 'Lo! Gorlim here,
traitor betrayed, now stands! Nor fear,
but haste! For Morgoth's fingers close
upon thy father's throat. He knows
your secret tryst, your hidden lair',
and all the evil he laid bare
that he had done and Morgoth wrought.
As a note of interest, in the Lay of Leithian, it is Gorlim who comes to Morgoth to betray Barahir and Co., while in the Published Silmarillion, it is Gorlim who is caught by Sauron.
My feeling on this is that, you have to feel pity for Gorlim. It is true that he betrayed Barahir and Co. to Sauron/Morgoth, but it was because of his love for Eilinel, and he eventually warned Beren about that.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:14 PM   #2
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Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
After his father and companions where slayed, Beren managed to regain the Ring of Barahir from the band of Orcs that took them and he wandered until he ……
Quote:
All that land was now become filled with evil, and all clean things were departing from it; and Beren was pressed so hard that at last he was forced to flee from Dorthonion. In time of winter and snow he forsook the land and grave of his father, and climbing into the high land of Doriath. There it was put into his heart that he would go down into the Hidden Kingdom, where no mortal foot had trodden. Terrible was his southward journey. Sheer were the precipices of Ered Gorgoroth, and beneath their feet were shadows that were laid before the rising of the Moon. Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked. There spiders of the fell race of Ungoliant abode, spinning their unseen webs in which all living things were snared; and monsters wandered there that were born in the long dark before the Sun, hunting silently with many eyes. No food for Elves or Men was there in that haunted land, but death only. That journey is not accounted least among the great deeds of Beren, but he spoke of it to no one after, lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way, and so came by paths that no Man nor Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath. And he passed through the mazes that Melian wove about the kingdom of Thingol, even as she had foretold; for a great doom lay upon him.
And when Beren met with Lúthien:
From the Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of Leithian
Quote:
Her arms like ivory were gleaming,
her long hair like a cloud was streaming,
her feet atwinkle wandered roaming
in misty mazes in the gloaming;
and glowworms shimmered round her feet,
and moths in moving garland fleet
above her head went wavering wan –
and this the moon now looked upon,
uprisen slow, and round, and white,
above the branches of the night.
Then clearly thrilled her voice and rang;
with sudden ecstasy she sang
a song of nightingales she learned
and with her elvish magic turned
to such bewildering delight
the moon hung moveless in the night.
And this it was that Beren heard,
and this he saw, without a word,
enchanted dumb, yet filled with fire
of such a wonder and desire
that all his mortal mind was dim;
her magic bound and fettered him,
and faint he leaned against a tree.
Forwandered, wayworn, gaunt was he,
his body sick and heart gone cold,
grey in his hair, his youth turned old;
for those that tread that lonely way
a price of woe and anguish pay.
They at the beginning had great joy with them
Quote:
Beyond his hope she returned to him where he sat in darkness, and long ago in the Hidden Kingdom she laid her hand in his. Thereafter often she came to him, and they went in secret through the woods together from spring to summer; and no others of the Children of Ilúvatar have had joy so great, though the time was brief.
but alas such things are not meant to last…
Quote:
But Daeron the minstrel also loved Lúthien, and he espied her meetings with Beren, and betrayed them to Thingol. Then the King was filled with anger, for Lúthien he loved above all things, setting her above all the princes of the Elves; whereas mortal Men he did not even take into his service. Therefore he spoke in grief and amazement to Lúthien; but she would reveal nothing, until he swore an oath to her that he would neither slay Beren nor imprison him. But he sent his servants to lay hands on him and lead him to Menegroth as a malefactor; and Lúthien forestalling them led Beren herself before the throne of Thingol, as if he were an honoured guest.
It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien. It is a good thing that the maiar had no parents. Jeje.
And so the Die is Cast
Quote:
But Thingol looked in silence upon Lúthien; and he thought in his heart: 'Unhappy Men, children of little lords and brief kings, shall such as these lay hands on you, and yet live?' Then breaking the silence he said: 'I see the ring, son of Barahir, and I perceive that you are proud, and deem yourself mighty. But a father's deeds, even had his service been rendered to me, avail not to win the daughter of Thingol and Melian. See now! I too desire a treasure that is withheld. For rock and steel and the fires of Morgoth keep the jewel that I would possess against all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms. Yet I hear you say that bonds such as these do not daunt you. Go your way therefore! Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Lúthien may set her hand in yours. Then you shall have my jewel; and though the fate of Arda lie within the Silmarils, yet you shall hold me generous.'
So it begins, the quest for the Silmaril.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:16 PM   #3
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Oath vs Oath
So our friend Beren when from Doriath to …….
Quote:
It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren passed through Doriath unhindered, and came at length to the region of the Twilight Meres, and the Fens of Sirion; and leaving Thingol's land he climbed the hills above the Falls of Sirion, where the river plunged underground with great noise. Thence he looked westward, and through the mist and rains that lay upon those hills he saw Talath Dirnen, the Guarded Plain, stretching between Sirion and Narog; and beyond he descried afar the highlands of Taur-en-Faroth that rose above Nargothrond. And being destitute, without hope or counsel, he turned his feet thither.
Then Beren reaches Nargothrond and with the aid of his ring, he is taken to the King….
Quote:
Thus Beren came before King Finrod Felagund; and Felagund knew him, needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Bëor and of Barahir. Behind closed doors they sat, and Beren told of the death of Barahir, and of all that had befallen hi in Doriath; and he wept, recalling Lúthien and their joy together. But Felagund heard his tale in wonder and disquiet; and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel. He spoke then to Beren in heaviness of heart. 'It is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose, and that the Oath of Fëanor is again at work. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber; and the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them. And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls; and though I, Finarfin's son, am King, they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need, but I fear that they will show neither love nor mercy to you, if your quest be told. Yet my own oath holds; and thus we are all ensnared.'
So we have a battle of Oaths, the sons of Fëanor Celegorm and Curufin with their oath, against that one of FF. Ain’t this interesting, pride vs pride. The result of this clashes of pride is that……
Quote:
Then King Felagund spoke before his people, recalling the deeds of Barahir, and his vow and he declared that it was laid upon him to aid the son of Barahir in his need, and he sought the help of his chieftains. Then Celegorm arose amid the throng, and drawing his sword he cried: 'Be he friend or foe, whether demon of Morgoth, of Elf, or child of Men, or any other living thing in Arda, neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the world ends.'
And now they murmured that Finarfin's son was not as a Vala to command them, and they turned their faces from him. But the curse of Mandos came upon the brothers, and dark thoughts arose in their hearts, thinking to send forth Felagund alone to his death, and to usurp, it might be, the throne of Nargothrond; for they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor.
And Felagund seeing that he was forsaken took from his head the silver crown of Nargothrond and cast it at his feet, saying: 'Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond. Yet if there be any on whom the shadow of out curse has not yet fallen, I should find at least a few to follow me, and should not go hence as a beggar that is thrust from the gates.' There were ten that stood by him; and the chief of them, who was named Edrahil, stooping lifted the crown and asked that it be given to a steward until Felagund's return. 'for you remain my king, and theirs,' he said, 'whatever betide.'
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:18 PM   #4
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To Taur-nu-Fuin and Sauron
Quote:
On an evening of autumn Felagund and Beren set out from Nargothrond with their ten companions; and they journeyed beside Narog to his source in the Falls of Ivrin. Beneath the Shadowy Mountains they came upon a company of Orcs, and slew them all in their camp by night; and they took their gear and their weapons. By the arts of Felagund their own forms and faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs; and thus disguised they came far upon their northward road, and ventured into the western pass, between Ered Wethrin and the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin. But Sauron in his tower was ware of them,
At this point in the story, I think that it is the first time that we can see that an Elf had the power to disguise his appearance and that of his party to that of Orcs. That ability would be useful in spy missions. I wonder if Finrod was the exception of the rule (Lúthien) or if the Eldar did that often?
Quote:
Then Sauron stripped from their disguise, and they stood before him naked and afraid. But though their kinds were revealed, Sauron could not discover their names or their purposes.
He cast them therefore into a deep pit, dark and silent, and threatened to slay them cruel, unless one would betray the truth to him. From time to time they saw two eyes kindled in the dark, and a werewolf devoured one of the companions; but none betrayed their lord.
[quote] In the time when Sauron cast Beren into the pit a weight of horror came upon Lúthien's heart; and going to Melian for counsel she learned that Beren lay in the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth without hope of rescue. Then Lúthien, perceiving that no help would come from any other on earth, resolved to fly from Doriath and come herself to him; but she sought the aid of Daeron, and he betrayed her purpose because he would not deprive Lúthien of the lights of heaven, lest she fail and fade, and yet would restrain her, he caused a house to be built from which she should not escape. [quote]
How did Melian know where Beren was imprisioned? And from here our heroine Lúthien faces betrayal after betrayal. She of course managed to escaped from her prision in Doriath.
Quote:
It is told in the Lay of Leithian how she escaped from the house in Hírilorn; for she put forth her arts of enchantment, and caused her hair to grow to great length, and of it she wove a dark robe that wrapped her beauty like a shadow, and it was laden with a spell of sleep. Of the strands that remained she twined a rope, and she let it down from her window; and as the end swayed above the guards that sat beneath the house they fell into a deep slumber. Then Lúthien climbed from her prison, and shrouded in her shadowy cloak she escaped from all eyes, and vanished out of Doriath.
Now our friends Celegorm and Curfin come into action.
Quote:
Thus they broke off the hunt and returned to Nargothrond, and Lúthien was betrayed; for they held her fast, and took away her cloak, and she was not permitted to pass the gates or to speak with any save the brothers, Celegorm and Curufin. For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien , and force Thingol to give her the mightiest of princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands. Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond; and Celegorm sent messengers to Thingol urging his suit.
It seems that our heroine is kind of naïve here. Didn’t she know about the Oath of Fëanor that the brothers had? Would they really allow Beren and Lúthien to take one of the gems of their father? Orodreth seems to be a wuss. He was overpowered by the C brothers. It is interesting to note that originally in the Tale of Turambar, Orodreth has a very strong personality, and as the legendarium evolved, he seemed to lost that quality and became weaker. As a side note, the name Orodreth is invalid. It should be Arothir.
From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
Quote:
The names of Sindarin form by which they were usually called in later song and legend were Finrod, Angrod (with wife Eðellos and son Arothir), Aegnor, and Galadriel.
In names however that ended in old words referring to status, rank, profession, race or kindred and so on the adjectival element still in Sindarin, following ancient models, might be placed first. Quenya Artaher (stem artahēr-) 'noble lord' was correctly Sindarized as Arothir.
The name of Angrod's son (still retaining the identity of 'Orodreth') was then changed from Artanáro to Artaresto. In an isolated note found with the genealogies, scribbled at great speed but nonetheless dated, August 1965, my father suggested that the best solution to the problem of Gil-galad's parentage was to find him in 'the son of Orodreth', who is here given the Quenya name of Artaresto, and continued:
Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains .. ..... His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.
The words that I cannot read contain apparently a preposition and a proper name, and this latter could be faroth (the High Faroth west of the river Narog). - In the last of the genealogical tables Artanaro (Rodnor) called Gil-galad appears, with the note that 'he escaped and dwelt at Sirion's Mouth'. The only further change was the rejection of the name Artaresto and its replacement by Artaher, Sindarin Arothir; and thus in the excursus (note 23) Arothir [Orodreth] is named as Finrod's 'kinsman and steward', and (note 47) Gil-galad is 'the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod'.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:21 PM   #5
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Of course Huan helped Lúthien escape from Nargothrond to help Beren.
Quote:
Now Huan devised a plan for the aid of Lúthien; and coming at a time of night he brought her cloak, and for the first time he spoke, giving her counsel. Then he led her by secret ways out of Nargothrond, and they fled north together; and he humbled his pride and suffered her to ride upon him in the fashion of a steed, even as the Orcs did at times upon great wolves. Thus they made great speed, for Huan was swift and tireless.
The Death of an Elf-King
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In the pits of Sauron Beren and Felagund lay, and all their companions were now dead; but Sauron purposed to keep Felagund to the last, for he perceived that he was a Noldo of great might and wisdom, and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand. But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death. Then he spoke to Beren, saying: 'I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman. It will be long ere I am seen among the Noldor again; and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death or life, for the fates of our kindreds are apart. Farewell!' He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair.
So died Finrod Felagund. I can understand the despair that Beren felt but, I wonder if a man such as Húrin Thalion would have felt despair in that situation. He endured Morgoth’s gaze, and he was himself without hope and yet he never faltered.
Of course Lúthien and Huan went to rescue Beren and they fought with Sauron.
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength , could overthrow Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.
I wonder if Lúthien could have prevented somehow the re-incarnation of Sauron if she wished too. It seems that she had the power to greatly debilitate the spirit or fëar of Sauron to the point of not allowing him to incarnate himself again. And here we reach, I think for the first time, a vampire in ME. I wonder if there were a lot of them in the service of Morgoth.
With the beating of Sauron, there came of course, shaming to the C brothers and they lost their hold of power in Nargothrond.
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There was tumult in Nargothrond. For thither now returned many Elves that had been prisoners in the isle of Sauron; and a clamour arose that no words of Celegorm could still. They lamented bitterly the fall of Felagund their king, saying that a maiden had dared that which the sons of Fëanor had not dared to do; but many perceived that it was treachery rather than fear that had guided Celegorm and Curufin. There fore the hearts of the people of Nargothrond were released from their dominion, and turned again to the house of Finarfin; and they obeyed Orodreth. But he would not suffer them to slay the brothers, as some desired, for the spilling of kindred blood by kin would bind the cures of Mandos more closely upon them all. Yet neither bread nor rest would he grant to Celegorm and Curufin within his realm, and he swore that there should be little love between Nargothrond and the sons of Fëanor there after.
Orodreth seems to have taken charge of the situation and he seemed almost regal at this point, and he pardoned the brothers. One has to wonder if the others sons of Fëanor would have acted the same way as the C brothers. I have a hard time figuring that someone like Maitimo Russandol would have done such a low deed as they did.
It is to be noted that Celebrimbor stayed in Nargothrond and that Huan returned to Celegorm. That hound was faithful.
But our friends, the C brothers keep making their great deeds and decide to take on Beren and Lúthien.
Quote:
Then Beren throttled Curufin; but death was near him, for Celegorm rode upon him with a spear. In that hour Huan forsook the service or Celegorm, and sprang up on him, so that his horse swerved aside, and would not approach Beren because of the terror of the great hound. Celegorm cursed both hound and horse, but Huan was unmoved. Then Lúthien rising forbade the slaying of Curufin; but Beren despoiled him of his gear and weapons, and took his knife, sheathless by his side; iron it would cleave as if it were green wood. Then Beren lifting Curufin flung him from him, and bade him walk now back to his noble kinsfolk, who might teach him to turn his valour to worthier use. 'Your horse,' he said, 'I keep for the service of Lúthien, and it may be accounted happy to be free of such a master.'
Quote:
Then Curufin cursed Beren under cloud and sky. 'Go hence,' he said, 'unto a swift and bitter death.' Celegorm took him beside him on his horse, and the brothers made then as if to ride away; and Beren turned away and took no heed of their words. But Curufin, being filled with shame and malice, took the bow of Celegorm and shot back as they went; and the arrow was aimed at Lúthien. Huan leaping caught it in his mouth; but Curufin shot again, and Beren sprang before Lúthien, and the dart smote him in the breast.
Beren was later healed by an herb brought by Huan. I wonder how Huan felt at that time for serving that long a time with Celegorm?
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:23 PM   #6
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Huan Speaks
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Then for the second time Huan spoke with words; and he counselled Beren, saying: 'From the shadow of death you can no longer save Lúthien, for by her love she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into exile, seeking peace in vain while your life lasts. But if you will not deny your doom, then either Lúthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or she must with you challenge the fate that lies before you--hopeless, yet not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your road. But my heart forebodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our three paths lead back to Doriath, and we may meet before the end.'
Die Fledermauss and the Werewolf go to Angband
Quote:
Then Beren perceived that Lúthien could not be divided from the doom that lay upon them both, and he sought no longer to dissuade her. By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Lúthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of ThurIngwëthil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.
Of course as they came to Angband they had a little trouble with the visitors.
Quote:
Now Carcharoth espied them from afar, and he was filled with doubt; for news had long been brought to Angband that Draugluin was dead. Therefore when they approached he denied them entry, and bade them stand; and he drew near with menace, scenting something strange in the air about them. But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Lúthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him.
The power of Lúthien is great. Now imagine if Thingol had used her daughter to make sleep all of her enemies in a battle? That would have been a great advantage.
Quote:
For they came to the seat of Morgoth in his nethermost hall that was upheld by horror, lit by fire, and filled with weapons of death and torment. There Beren slunk in wolf's form beneath his throne; but Lúthien was stripped of her disguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. She was not daunted by his eyes; and she named her own name, and offered her service to sing before him, after the manner of a minstrel. Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for awhile, and taking secret pleasure in his thought. Then suddenly she eluded his sight, and out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce; and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking her.
Of course Beren had to sneak to the throne of Morgoth. Jeje. I wonder what Morgoth’s dark thoughts were? Notice that she is the second Children of Ilúvatar not to be daunted by the eyes of Morgoth. And of course our villain felt asleep too.
Quote:
As a dead beast Beren lay upon the ground; but Lúthien touching him with her hand aroused him, and he cast aside the wolf-hame. Then he drew forth the knife Angrist; and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril.
As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp; but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not. It came then into Beren's mind that he would go beyond his vow, and bear out of Angband all three of the Jewels of Fëanor; but such was not the doom of the Silmarils. The knife Angrist snapped, and a shard of the blade flying smote the cheek of Morgoth. He groaned and stirred, and all the host of Angband moved in sleep.
Beren felt asleep too. And our friend became greedy too. Because of the use of the power of Lúthien, she was weary and their disguises were removed. I wonder if Beren had not been so greedy, could they have fled from Angand freely. Now our friend Carcharoth, took the silmaril by bitting Beren’s hand off.
Quote:
But Carcharoth looked upon that holy jewel and was not daunted, and the devouring spirit within him awoke to sudden fire; and gaping he took suddenly the hand within his jaws, and he bit it off at the wrist. Then swiftly all his inwards were filled with a flame of anguish, and the Silmaril seared his accursed flesh. Howling he led before them, and the walls of the valley of the Gate echoes with the clamour of his torment. So terrible did he become in his madness that all the creatures of Morgoth that abode in that valley, or were upon any of the roads that led thither, fled far away' for he slew all living things that stood in his path, and burst from the North with ruin upon the world. Of all the terrors that came ever into Beleriand ere Angband's fall the madness of Carcharoth was the most dreadful; for the power of the Silmaril was hidden within him.
Beren was healed by Lúthien and as it seems with most of the most perilous circumstances, they were rescued by the Eagles. Just in time, I might add and they were returned to the borders of Doriath.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:27 PM   #7
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Thereafter Beren was named Erchamion, which is the One-handed; and suffering was graven in his face. But at last he was drawn back to life by the love of Lúthien, and he arose, and together they walked in the woods once more. And they did not hasten from that place, for it seemed fair to them. Lúthien indeed was willing to wander in the wild without returning, forgetting house and people and all the glory of the Elf-kingdoms, and for a time Beren was content; but he could not for long forget his oath to return to Menegroth, nor would he withhold Lúthien from Thingol for ever. For he held by the law of Men, deeming it perilous to set at naught the will of the father, save at the last need; and is seemed also to him unfit that one so royal and fair as Lúthien should live always in the woods, as the rude hunters among Men, without home or honour or the fair things which are the delight of the queens of the Eldalië. Therefore after a while he persuaded her, and their footsteps forsook the houseless lands; and he passed into Doriath, leading Lúthien home. So their doom willed it.
Even with all of what Thingol did to Beren, he would not forsake his daughter to him forever. I wonder if Thingol felt the same way!
We now have Carcharoth killing lots of people and venturing in the protected woods of Doriath.
Quote:
Then Beren led Lúthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath. But Beren knelt before him, and said: 'I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
And Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.
Then Thingol's mood was softened; and Beren sat before his throne upon the left, and Lúthien upon the right, and they told all the tale of the Quest, while all there listened and were filled with amazement. And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, and among the great in Arda, and the love of Lúthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world. Therefore at the last he yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of Lúthien before the throne of her father.
The Hunt for the Wolf
Quote:
Therefore, since daily Carcharoth drew nearer to Menegroth, they prepared the Hunting of the Wolf; of all pursuits of beasts whereof tales tell the most perilous. To that chase went Huan the Hound of Valinor, and Mablung of the Heavy Hand, and Beleg Strongbow, and Beren Erchamion, and Thingol King of Doriath. They rode forth in the morning and passed over the River Esgalduin; but Lúthien remained behind at the gates of Menegroth. A dark shadow fell upon her and it seemed to her that the sun had sickened and turned black.
There is always present the premonition of the Eldar is it not.
Quote:
Beren stood beside Thingol, and suddenly they were aware that Huan had left their side. Then a great baying awoke in the thicket; for Huan becoming impatient and desiring to look upon this wolf had gone in alone to dislodge him. But Carcharoth avoided him, and bursting form the thorns leaped suddenly upon Thingol. Swiftly Beren strode before him with a spear, but Carcharoth swept it aside and felled him, biting at his breast. In that moment Huan leaped from the thicket upon the back of the Wolf, and they fell together fighting bitterly; and no battle of wolf and hound has been like to it, for in the baying of Huan was heard the voice of the horns of Oromë and the wrath of the Valar, but in the howls of Carcharoth was the hate of Morgoth and malice crueller than teeth of steel; and the rocks were rent by their clamour and fell from on high and choked the falls of Esgalduin. There they fought to the death; but Thingol gave no heed, for he knelt by Beren, seeing that he was sorely hurt
Isn’t it ironic that Beren saved Thingol’s life. Carcharoth and Huan were both killed, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Huan.
Quote:
Mablung and Beleg came hastening to the King's aid, but when they looked upon what was done they cast aside their spears and wept. Then Mablung took a knife and ripped up the belly of the Wolf; and within he was well nigh all consumed as with a fire, but the hand of Beren that held the jewel was yet incorrupt. But when Mablung reached forth to touch it, the hand was no more, and the Silmaril lay there unveiled, and the light of it filled the shadows of the forest all about hem. Then quickly and in fear Mablung took it and set it in Beren's living hand; and Beren was aroused by the touch of the Silmaril, and held it aloft, and bade Thingol receive it. 'Now is the Quest achieved,' he said, 'and my doom full-wrought'; and he spoke no more.
And now our friend Thingol is sad at the death of Beren.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-21-2004, 08:29 PM   #8
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Le pouvoir del’amour
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For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass.
Quote:
The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall ever hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and the listening the Valar grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Ilúvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since.
Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed.
These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, land subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.
This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, thought all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.
Amazing is it not this tale ? I tried a new aproach to the chapter intro, I hope that people would like it.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:59 PM   #9
Sister Golden Hair
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Very nice job Meadhros. Thank you for taking the re-assignment.

Just a few points I want to discuss:

Quote:
It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien. It is a good thing that the maiar had no parents. Jeje.
And so the Die is Cast
Well, let's face it, Thingol in the beginning had no great love for Men, and this is his daughter we're talking about. Yes, Thingol married a Maia, but I don't think it ever came into his thought that he was inferior to her. As for Luthien's choice, even had it been an Elf, or even a Maia, they would not have been good enough for her in Thingol's eyes.
Quote:
But the curse of Mandos came upon the brothers, and dark thoughts arose in their hearts, thinking to send forth Felagund alone to his death, and to usurp, it might be, the throne of Nargothrond; for they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor.
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's
Quote:
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?
I am not certian that the entire host of Nargothrond would have gone anyway. The realm would have been left unattended and vulnerable. But who's to say that had more than ten gone on the quest, that the outcome would have been the same? It may have succeeded and the deaths of the ten companions along with the king would have not happened. Who knows? But either way, I don't and wouldn't credit Celegorm and Curufin with anything positive that came from their actions involving the quest.
Quote:
At this point in the story, I think that it is the first time that we can see that an Elf had the power to disguise his appearance and that of his party to that of Orcs. That ability would be useful in spy missions. I wonder if Finrod was the exception of the rule (Lúthien) or if the Eldar did that often?
Interesting. I doubt this is something that the Eldar did all the time, or that all the Eldar were capable of doing, otherwise, aside from Beren, Finrod's ten knights would have disguised themselves without his help. Finrod seems to have been a very powerful Elf in many ways as far as arts (magic). He and Luthien do seem to have some similar abilities, Luthien being more powerful than he though, such as the ability to sing songs of power as Finrod did with Sauron. I have always considered his song in the camp, when he first encounters the Edain, to be somewhat of a song of power, because he was able to bring clear visions before their eyes of what was in the song.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 01-22-2004, 02:21 PM   #10
Artanis
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Re: Chapter 19: Of Beren and Lúthien

How great Rusco!
7 leading posts must be a new record.
Did you finally knock down the PC occupant?
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
As a note of interest, in the Lay of Leithian, it is Gorlim who comes to Morgoth to betray Barahir and Co., while in the Published Silmarillion, it is Gorlim who is caught by Sauron.
Weren't there two versions of the lay, where the first included a deliberate treason on Gorlim's side, while the latter was in line with the published Sil?
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My feeling on this is that, you have to feel pity for Gorlim. It is true that he betrayed Barahir and Co. to Sauron/Morgoth, but it was because of his love for Eilinel, and he eventually warned Beren about that.
I too feel sorry for Gorlim as he appears in the published Sil. He did his best, but faced a power too great and too cruel for him to resist.
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Old 01-22-2004, 02:51 PM   #11
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Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's
But that is why it was a dark design. Their realms had been shattered by the Braggolach, and Finrod provided them with shelter and succour, despite what must have been substantial misgivings on his part. He felt duty-bound to do so. And how do the brothers repay him? By attempting to usurp his realm. Very honorable, those sons of Feanor.
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Old 01-22-2004, 03:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus
But that is why it was a dark design. Their realms had been shattered by the Braggolach, and Finrod provided them with shelter and succour, despite what must have been substantial misgivings on his part. He felt duty-bound to do so. And how do the brothers repay him? By attempting to usurp his realm. Very honorable, those sons of Feanor.
What my problem is, is that the text seems to indicate that they believed they were entitled to it because they were of the eldest line. I do see your point though. Yes, those guys were a piece of work.

Nice to see you here Bacchus. As you can see, we have quite a project going on here that I am very proud of. Everyone has worked long and hard on it, and we owe Meadhros a debt of gratitude for starting it.
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"Whither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 01-22-2004, 03:06 PM   #13
Lefty Scaevola
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?
Nope, as well demonstrated in this thread
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/show...&threadid=9869
where you yet refuse to accept my superior judgement.
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"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"
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Old 01-22-2004, 03:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's
I agree with Bacchus, Celegorm and Curufin knew they were not entitled to the throne, but nonetheless they tried to get into that position. Isn't that what 'usurp' means, to take someone's position unlawfully and/or by force? The High Kingship had passed from the Fëanoreans against their will, and maybe they just wanted the power they thought they should have had. Thus the text "for they were of the eldest line ... "
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Old 01-22-2004, 03:23 PM   #15
Maedhros
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I am not certian that the entire host of Nargothrond would have gone anyway. The realm would have been left unattended and vulnerable. But who's to say that had more than ten gone on the quest, that the outcome would have been the same? It may have succeeded and the deaths of the ten companions along with the king would have not happened. Who knows? But either way, I don't and wouldn't credit Celegorm and Curufin with anything positive that came from their actions involving the quest.
If Sauron could have removed Finrod Felagund's disguise, what hope would they have had against Morgoth? Remember, the quest was for them to retrieve a Silmaril. I know that you don't like them but good thing that Celegorm was there.
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Weren't there two versions of the lay, where the first included a deliberate treason on Gorlim's side, while the latter was in line with the published Sil?
That is correct.
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Did you finally knock down the PC occupant?
I was babysitting a cybercafe from 5 to 11 pm, so I had a lot of time to make my intro.
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I agree with Bacchus, Celegorm and Curufin knew they were not entitled to the throne, but nonetheless they tried to get into that position. Isn't that what 'usurp' means, to take someone's position unlawfully and/or by force? The High Kingship had passed from the Fëanoreans against their will, and maybe they just wanted the power they thought they should have had. Thus the text "for they were of the eldest line ... "
Well, you have to consider that Arothir was kind of a wuss and could not stop the C brothers.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-22-2004, 05:36 PM   #16
Bacchus
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Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What my problem is, is that the text seems to indicate that they believed they were entitled to it because they were of the eldest line. I do see your point though. Yes, those guys were a piece of work.

Nice to see you here Bacchus. As you can see, we have quite a project going on here that I am very proud of. Everyone has worked long and hard on it, and we owe Meadhros a debt of gratitude for starting it.
They very likely did believe that they were entitled to take over beacuse if the seniority of their line. The Feanorians were nothing if not arrogant, and Celegorm and Curufin were arguably the two worst (although a case can be made for Caranthir as well).

I've been quite impressed with the project, and can't wait for Chs 20 and 21-my two favorite chapters.
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Old 01-22-2004, 05:45 PM   #17
Sister Golden Hair
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Originally posted by Maedhros
If Sauron could have removed Finrod Felagund's disguise, what hope would they have had against Morgoth? Remember, the quest was for them to retrieve a Silmaril. I know that you don't like them but good thing that Celegorm was there.
Nope. Beren and Luthien proved that Morgoth was not unassailable, and it was just the two of them and Huan. Also, the fact that Fingolfin faught wth Morgoth in single combat and wounded him 7 times tells me that had more Elves gone on the quest with Finrod, things may have turned out better. As for Sauron, had there been more on the quest, he may not have bothered with them, and the encounter between Sauron and Finrod might not have happened.

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Well, you have to consider that Arothir was kind of a wuss and could not stop the C brothers.
Orodreth was weak of will I think, but he at least drove them out of Nargothrond when he discovered their malice toward Finrod and Luthien. He also used good judgement I think in not allowing the people to slay them, knowing it would bind the curse of Mandos tighter around them because of the Kinslaying.
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:08 PM   #18
Maedhros
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Nope. Beren and Luthien proved that Morgoth was not unassailable, and it was just the two of them and Huan. Also, the fact that Fingolfin faught wth Morgoth in single combat and wounded him 7 times tells me that had more Elves gone on the quest with Finrod, things may have turned out better. As for Sauron, had there been more on the quest, he may not have bothered with them, and the encounter between Sauron and Finrod might not have happened.
How many is good? If they were too many elves with FF, Sauron would have been more suspicious, and a large force would have attracted the attention of more servants of Morgoth.
It seems to me that Finrod Felagund would have not had the power that Lúthien had to make Morgoth sleep, making the attempt to claim the Silmaril almost impossible.
Good thing that Celegorm was there.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-23-2004, 07:42 AM   #19
Artanis
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Originally posted by Maedhros
At this point in the story, I think that it is the first time that we can see that an Elf had the power to disguise his appearance and that of his party to that of Orcs. That ability would be useful in spy missions. I wonder if Finrod was the exception of the rule (Lúthien) or if the Eldar did that often?
I wonder if Tolkien would have changed this if had ever come around to rewrite this story. It seems to me like something better fitted with the elder stories, like the tales.

On the other hand, since Sauron is presented as a sorcerer rather than a warrior, it would be fitting to have an Elf with great magis skills to challenge him, as in the song duel.
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It seems that our heroine is kind of naïve here. Didn’t she know about the Oath of Fëanor that the brothers had? Would they really allow Beren and Lúthien to take one of the gems of their father?
It's diffucult to see how Lúthien could have known about the Oath and still revealed herself and her purpose to C&C. She was not stupid. But how this essential information may have escaped her I don't know. She had lived all her life within well-protected borders, but she still knew about the evils that befell outside her father's realm. Maybe it was her father's careless attitude towards the Fëanorean Oath that had influenced her, and perhaps she didn't realise how far Fëanor's sons would go to fulfil it. Though the latter seems unlikely too. An oath is an oath.

Another of Lúthien's actions that I do not understand, is when she went to Daeron for aid to fly from Doriath, after he had betrayed her and Beren the first time. Didn't she know who had informed Thingol about her meetings with Beren?
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I wonder if Lúthien could have prevented somehow the re-incarnation of Sauron if she wished too. It seems that she had the power to greatly debilitate the spirit or fëar of Sauron to the point of not allowing him to incarnate himself again.
I think it's difficult to believe that she could have had that sort of power, whatever the text indicates. Sauron was not permanently incarnated, and was not bound to his form. I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to reclothe himself even if he forsook his body.
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Orodreth seems to have taken charge of the situation and he seemed almost regal at this point, and he pardoned the brothers.
He has his moment of greatness there. But it's really his people who allow him to take charge again, he didn't actually do anything to make it happen. But then, it's difficult to see what he could have done, any action to regain authority could very well have ended with an internal fight, and the people of C&C were numerous, and still more people followed them.
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One has to wonder if the others sons of Fëanor would have acted the same way as the C brothers. I have a hard time figuring that someone like Maitimo Russandol would have done such a low deed as they did.
Personally I think neither Maitimo nor Maglor would have acted this way. They would have pursued anyone who had a Silmaril, but I don't think they would have tried to push Finrod or Arothir from the throne of Nargothrond, nor treated Lúthien the way C&C did. I don't know about Caranthir, and less about the twins. But neither of them seem ever to reflect upon or regret the Oath, which make me think that they would be more likely to perform evil deeds elsewhere too.
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Last edited by Artanis : 01-23-2004 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 01-23-2004, 07:51 AM   #20
Falagar
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Originally posted by Artanis
Personally I think neither Maitimo nor Maglor would have acted this way. They would have pursued anyone who had a Silmaril, but they would not have tried to push Finrod or Arothir from the throne of Nargothrond, and they would not have treated Lúthien the way C&C did. I don't know about Caranthir, and less about the twins. But neither of them seem to reflect upon or regret the Oath, which make me think that they would be more likely to perform evil deeds elsewhere too.
Are we going to take The Shibboleth into account here about the Amrod and Amras? Though one of the brothers actually died there I still think it's relevant (especially thinking of Ambarusso's comment "Fell and fey you are become").
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