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Old 03-06-2004, 12:29 PM   #1
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Chapter 21: Of Turin Turambar

CHAPTER 21: OF TURIN TURAMBAR

Additional Reading:
Unfinished Tales: Narn I Hin Hurin
Book of Lost Tales 2: Turambar and the Foaloke
Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of the Children of Hurin
And possibly more, that’s all the HOME I have access to.


Quote:
“Sit now there,” said Morgoth, “and look out upon the lands where evil and despair shall come upon those whom you have delivered to me. For you have dared to mock me, and have questioned the power of Melkor, Master of the fates of Arda. Therefore with my eyes you shall see, and with my ears you shall hear, and nothing shall be hidden from you.”
Chapter 21 begins with a little bit of geneology on the wives and kids of Hurin and Huor, describing how Huor’s wife was Rian, and Hurin married Morwen. Turin was born in the year that Beren came upon Luthien in Neldoreth, eight years before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and he had a sister, Lalaith, which is laughter, who was two years younger. Turin loved Lalaith, as we see in the Narn I Hin Hurin, Unfinished Tales, page 59:

Quote:
At that time all the warmth of his heart was for Lalaith his sister; but he played with her seldom, and liked better to guard her unseen and to watch her going upon grass or under tree, as she sang such songs as the children of the Edain made long ago when the tongue of the Elves was still fresh upon their lips.
When he was five years old, she died, “for the Evil Breath came to Dor-Lomin.” Turin took sick as well, and when he recovered she was dead. He wept, but his mother told him never to mention the name Lalaith, for “Laughter is stilled in this house.” From then, he spoke of her only to a man named Sador, who was a soldier when Galdor fell, and he watched Hurin take up his fathers lordship and take command, but afterword, he was weary of battle, and returned to Dor-lomin, where he maimed himself with an axe. Turin and Sabor talked about many things, as Hurin was often gone, and Morwen was, in my opinion, too sullen to have a good conversation with.
Sabor and Turin speak on many things in the Narn, but on page 62 of the Unfinished Tales, Sabor tells Turin, regarding the relations of the Edain and the Eldar, something that is very prophetic:

Quote:
”But my father loves them,” said Turin, “and he is not happy without them. He says that we have learned nearly all that we know from them, and have been made a nobler people; and he says that the men that have lately come over the Mountains are hardly better than Orcs.”
“That is true,” answered Sabor; “true at least of some of us. But the up-climbing is painful, and from high places it is easy to fall low.”
Hurin then set off for the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and Turin never saw his father again. After the battle, the Easterlings, under the leadership of a man named Brodda, were given Dor-lomin to live in. They didn’t mess with Morwen, though, because they thought she was a witch, and in league with the elves. Still, Morwen didn’t feel safe, and thus sent Turin to Doriath. Soon after he left, Morwen had a daughter who she named Nienor, which is mourning.
Turin and his companions managed to get lost in the Girdle of Melian, but lucky for them, Beleg Strongbow came along and led them to Menegroth. Turin was well received by King Thingol, because Ol’ Thingol no longer hated the Edain, due to Beren’s rescue of the Silmaril, and Hurin’s and Huor’s last stand at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Anyway, he was treated with honor, as a foster son of the king, yet he remained sorrowed. Messengers regularly went to Dor-lomin to bring word, and to try to persuade Morwen to bring herself and Nienor to Menegroth, but she refused, being too stubborn to leave her husbands land. She did send the Dragon-Helm of Dor-lomin, however, “one of the greatest heirlooms of the house of hador.”
About nine years passed of Turins abiding in Menegroth, when the messengers went out, but did not return, and the king would send no more. At this news, Turin went to Thingol and asked for mail and a sword, and he went to battle on the marches of Doriath, fighting alongside Beleg Cuthalion.
After three years, Turin went back to Menegroth. He came in dirty and unkempt from the field, and an elf of the place, Saeros, who was jealous of his favor with the king, taunted him saying:

Quote:
”If the Men of Hithlim are so wild and fell, of what sort are the women of that land? Do they run like deer clad only in their hair?”
This ticked Turin off, and he lobbed a drinking vessel at Saeros, injuring him.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:31 PM   #2
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The next day, Turin was headed back to the front lines, and he was waylaid by Saeros, but Turin overcame him, and “sent him to run naked as a hunted beast through the woods.” Well, Saeros fell into a stream and died on the rocks. Others coming by thought that Turin had done this, and on of those, Mablung ( who you may also know from the Lay of Lethian), bade him return to Menegroth and await the judgement of the king. In his pride, Turin fled.
It came to pass that one who had seen the whole thing, Nelles, who was an elf who preferred the wild to the halls of Menegroth, confessed it before the king, and he was grieved that Turin had run, so he sent Beleg to find him.\
Meanwhile, Turin had found his way among a crew of outlaws in the woodlands south of Teiglin. These guys were remanants of lost battles and the various homesteads that were destroyed by the orcs, and they were not the kindest people. Turin took the name of Neithan, the Wronged. He lived among these guys for a while, and they went about their outlawish business, when Beleg happened upon them, and they took him prisoner and treated him cruelly. Turin came back and found them doing this, untied Beleg and was very angry with the outlaws, and he let them know this. He also swore not to harm or harass anyone or thing that was an enemy of Morgoth.
Beleg told Turin of the kings pardon, and tried to convince him to return to Menegroth, but Turin refused, mostly out of pride, which is a recurring theme in this particular story. He told Beleg to look for him on Amon Rudh, without knowing what would soon befall him. Beleg and Turin parted, friends, but sad friends.
Beleg went back to Menegroth, and informed Thingol of the happenings, save for the fact that he was treated evilly by Turin’s companions, and the king was grieved, but thankful that Beleg had found Turin. Beleg requested to go back to Turin, and watch over him, and try to persuade him to come back, that his skills might not be wasted in the wild. Thingol agreed and sent him with the sword of his choosing, which was Anglachel.
Anglachel was forged from a meteor by Eol, who you might remember was Maeglin’s father before he “died” in Gondolin. Melian warned him, though:

Quote:
“There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.”
She gave him also a store of lembas, showing Turin great favor by doing so, for never before had the elves let men eat their bread. Beleg left Menegroth and headed to Dimbar, to fight the orcs, but finally in winter, he disappeared, and his companions never saw him again.
` During this time, Turin and his outlaws headed west, seeking a safer lair, and it was in this movement that they ran into Mim the petty dwarf, and his two kids. It happened that the two sons of Mim fled, and one of Turins men let fly an arrow, Androg, as it were, but there was no report of a hit. They captured Mim, who pleaded for his life. He ended up leading them to his ancient halls in Amon Rudh, where he found out that one of the arrows that was loosed struck and killed his youngest son. Turin managed to calm him down, and was allowed to abide in Mim’s halls. So they lived for awhile, until winter came, and one day, so did Beleg, and he brought with him the Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin.
Time went by, and Beleg helped them out and healed their wounds, and soon, the orcs came marching out of Angband, through Anach, along the northern marches of Doriath, and down into the Guarded Plain, but here they were halted, for Turin once again donned the Dragon-helm of Dor-lomin. He and Beleg, the Two Captains, offered leadership and hope to the dispossessed and leaderless, and the land was called Dor-Cuarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm. Word spread, and Turin was again happy, calling himself Gorthol, the Dreaded Helm. Their deeds were heard of everywhere, including Angband. Morgoth knew then where Turin was, due to the Dragon-helm, and he sent his spies to Amon Rudh.
On a time, Mim and his remaining son Ibun went out to gather roots, and were captured by orcs. Mim betrayed the dwelling of Turin and Beleg, on the terms that Turin would not be harmed. Everyone was slain, save Turin and Beleg. The orcs took Turin and left.
Mim crept out of his house and went to check out the bodies, and looking at Beleg, he noticed that Beleg was looking back. He took off, with Beleg shouting his curse after him, “The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!”
Beleg looked around and didn’t see Turin, so he followed the trail of the orcs all the way through Tar-nu-Fuin, where he ran into Gwindor, son of Guilin, who was captured by the Enemy at the battle of Unnumbered Tears. This elf was the same who led the charge to the doors of Angband in that battle, and he was now bent and fearful, having been enthralled by Morgoth. Gwindor informed Beleg that he had seen a large company of orcs pass a while back, carrying a man, who he described as “very tall…as tall as are the Men from the misty hills of Hithlim.”
So they moved to the orc camp, and when everyone was asleep, Beleg shot the wolf-sentinels, and they entered in. Turin was tied to a tree, so they cut him off and took him out of the camp. As they were cutting his bonds, Anglachel slipped, and pricked Turin’s foot. In a rage he jumped up and grappled the sword from Beleg, and slew him, thinking him a foe.

Quote:
But as he stood, finding himself free, and ready to sell his life dearly against imagined foes, there came a great flash of lightning above them; and in its light he looked down on Beleg’s face. Then Turin stood stonestill and silent, staring on that dreadful death, knowing what he had done; and so terrible was his face, lit by the lightning that flickered all about them, that Gwindor cowered down upon the ground and dared not raise his eyes.
Quote:
Thus ended Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days, at the hand of him whom he most loved; and that grief was graven on the face of Turin and never faded.
Turin did not speak for quite a while, he was grieving for Beleg, until Gwindor led him to Eithel Ivrin, the starting point for the Narog, and Turin drank from the water, and was healed of his madness. After that, he made a song for Beleg, Laer Cu Beleg, the Song of the Great Bow. Gwindor then led him south, to Nargothrond.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:33 PM   #3
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At first no one in the place knew who Gwindor was, until Finduilas, the daughter of Orodreth the king, recognized him, due to the fact that she was in love with him befor the Nirnaeth. Turin was admitted since he was with Gwindor, and when Gwindor tried to introduce him, Turin stopped him and called himself Agarwaen the son of Umarth, the Bloodstained, son of Ill-fate.
He was in Nargothrond for a while, and he grew to his full manhood, until he looked almost like one of the Noldor. The sword Anglachel was reforged, and Turin became known as Mormegil, the Black Sword, and his prowess in battle was great. So great, that Finduilas’ love was turned to him, rather to Gwindor, though Turin did not realize it. Gwindor got pissed about the whole deal, and told Finduilas Turins real name, and warned her about the doom that hung over Turin’s head. But she didn’t really seem to care, saying only, “Turin son of Hurin loves me not, nor will.”
Finduilas told Turin, and he got raged on Gwindor, saying that he was trying to hide the doom that was upon him, but Gwindor told him the doom was in him, not his name. So, Orodreth learned that the Mormegil was the son of Hurin, and gave him great honor, and Turin became mighty among the people of Nargothrond. He managed to be in the highest council of the king, which only made Gwindor more angry. He didn’t like the stealthy way that war was fought in Nargothond, so he took the people and went openly to battle, thus was Nargothrond revealed to Morgoth, yet Turin’s name was hidden from him still.

Because of Turin’s deeds in the west, the west was more open to travel, so Morwen headed to Doriath with Nienor, but when she got there, she was grieved to find Turin gone, with no word of him heard since the Dragon-helm had vanished. But there they remained, and were treated with honor.

Eventually, messengers appeared in Nargothrond from Cirdan. They brought news of Orcs at Ered Wethrin and in the Pass of Sirion, and word from Cirdan, that he had heard from Ulmo…

Quote:
Hear now the words of the Lord of Waters! Thus he spoke to Cirdan the Shipwright: “The Evil of the North has defiled the springs of Sirion, and my power withdraws from the fingers of the flowing waters. But a worse thing is yet to come forth. Say therefore to the Lord of Nargothrond: Shut the doors of the fortress and go not abroad. Cast the stones of your pride into the loud river, that the creeping evil may not find the gate”
So, later on, the men of Brethil were bested, and Morgoth let loose Glaurung the Uruloki. He defiled the Eithel Ivrin, and passed into the realm of Nargothrond, burning the guarded plain.
The army of Nargothrond went forth, but the army of Morgoth was further forward than they thought, and the battle turned into a rout. Turin only, wearing his dwarf mask, could withstand the approach of Glaurung, and Orodreth was slain, and Gwindor was fatally wounded. But Turin grabbed him and took him away from the battle. Gwindor told him that he did love him, but he rued the day that he rescued him from the orcs, for if he hadn’t, Nargothrond may still stand, and he would still have the love of Finduilas. He told Turin to haste back to the caves and save Finduilas.
So he did, and he grabbed as many soldiers as he could on the way, but the dragon got there before him, using the bridge that Turin built but in his pride refused to cast down. Even as they arrived, the sack of Nargothrond was at hand, and the orcs were herding the women that were not slain on the terraces. Turin decided to charge into battle, and he hacked his way across the bridge, and found himself facing Glaurung. He tried to fight him, but Glaurung withstood the attack, and managed to catch Turin in his glance in the process.
Turin was taken by the dragons spell, and Glaurung spoke to him, saying:

Quote:
“Evil have been all thy ways, son of Hurin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lomin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but thou carest not for that Glad may thy father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall”
As he was held by the eyes of the Dragon, the orcs made off with all their slaves, including Finduilas, and when they were gone, Glaurung withdrew his glance, and when Turin awoke, he gave him two options: save Finduilas, or go to his kin in the north.

He headed to Dor-lomin with great speed, and did not stop until he got to Eithel Irvin, and he saw that Glaurung had defiled it, and was angry. Angry. He made it to Hithlim, and he attacked Brodda and Brodda told him that they fled south, that the way was opened by the Black Sword. So Turins eyes were open as the lies of Glaurung were untangled.
So now he rides south in rage, trying to save Finduilas, and on the way, he saved a bunch of Men of Brethil, who were surrounded by orcs. He called himself a Wildman of the woods, and when they asked him to stay, he refused, as he still had to find Finduilas. They informed him that she was dead, they had attacked the orcs trying to save their captives, and the orcs killed everyone of them. Finduilas was staked to a tree with a spear, and she had died. They had laid her in a mound and named it Haudh-en-Elleth, the Mound of the Elf-maid.
Dorlas, the leader of the Brethil men led him to the mound, and he fell down in a “darkness of grief that was near death.” Dorlas, their leader, saw the black sword and knew who he was then, and they bore him up and took him to Ephel Brandir upon Amon Obel, where the remanant of the people of Haleth were chilling. They were ruled by a lame dude called Brandir, son of Handir. At spring, Turin cast off his darkness, and named himself Turambar, which is master of Doom.
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Last edited by Beor : 03-08-2004 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:35 PM   #4
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After the fall of Nargothrond, no new tidings hit Doriath of Turin, so Morwen decided to go to Nargothrond by herself. Thingol sent Mablung after her, along with some people. Nienor was told to stay, but she disguised herself as one of Thingol’s riders and went out. They found Morwen and rode to Amon Ethir, the hill of Spies, that Felagund had built long ago. They couldn’t see anything of Nargothrond from there, so Mablung rode down there, leaving Morwen and Nienor on the hill with his people.
Glaurung was there however, and he jumped into the river causing a steam to rise. Mablungs people saw this and tried to lead Morwen and Nienor away from the fray, but the horses went mad and took off everywhere. No one in Doriath ever heard word of Morwen, but Nienor, thrown off her horse tried to make her way west, and ended up staring Glaurung in the face. He made her forget everything, and she couldn’t hear see or move on her own will. Mablung found her like this, and soon his people came back, and they led her on the way back to Doriath. They were attacked by orcs on the way, just as Nienor’s sight and hearing came back, and she took off through the woods, ripping off her clothes as she ran.
So she cruised though the woods for a while, and finally exhausted, laid herself down upon Haudh-en-Elleth, and there Turin and the woodsmen found her. She was comforted as soon as she looked upon Turin, and would not be parted from him. Turin called her Niniel, Tear Maiden, having no idea that she was his sister. So they took her to their home, and she was stricken by a fever, but Brandir cured her. She couldn’t tell of anything that happened before Turambar found her, but she managed to get by.
Three years after the sack of Nargothrond, Turin and Niniel got married, and he got her pregnant. For a while he had peace, and would not go to battle, for the love of Niniel, but soon word of Glaurung came, and he had to fight. He told them that the worm could not be bested but by cunning, and asked for support from anyone. Dorlas only stood forward, and spoke bad about Brandir, the cripple. He dishonored him, but oh well, the man was scared of a dragon, for crying out loud ! Eventually, Hunthor, a kinsman of Brandir came forward, and went in his stead.
So they went down to Nen Girith and learned that Glaurung was chilling by the Teiglin, and was going to cross when the sun went down. The dragon was lying at Cabed-en-Aras, a gorge that was narrow enough for a deer to jump. So they went to climb down the near side of the gorge, cross the river, and go up the other side, taking the dragon in the belly. On the way down, Dorlas got scared, and withdrew in shame to the edge of the woods. Turambar and Hunthor crossed over the stream and headed up the other side. Then Glaurung decided to move, and a disloged stone hit and killed Hunthor. Turambar climbed the rest of the way, and stabbed Glaurung in the belly.
The dragon writhed all about, spewing forth flame and such, and finally, he died. Turin headed up to get his sword and to look upon his foe. He stood over Glaurung, saying:

Quote:
Hail, Worm of Morgoth! Well met again! Die now and the darkness have thee! Thus is Turin son of Hurin avenged.
but when he pulled out his sword, black blood came with it, and it poisioned him, and suddenly, Glaurung opened his eyes, and the look and the poision was like a blow, and it knocked him into a swoon, and he fell with his sword beneath him.

During all this, Niniel got worried, and would not wait to see what was happening, but went down to Nen Girith to see what was going on. Brandir tried to stay her, but he couldn’t, and he took off after her, for he loved her so. He came to her, and tried to lead her to flee, but she wanted to go to her husband. When they came to Haudh-en-Elleth, she let out a cry and took off down to Cabed-en-Aras, where Glaurung lie next to Turin Turambar.
Then Glaurung awoke and revealed all to her. She looked down at Turin and cried:
Quote:
“Farewell, O twice beloved! A Turin Turambar turun ambartanen: master of doom by doom mastered! O happy to be dead!”
Then she cast herself off Cabed-en-Aras and was lost forever.

Brandir heard all of this, and could not bring himself to look over into the gorge, and it was since called Cabed Naeramarth, the Leap of Dreadful Doom.
He headed to the house, and told them what had happened, including that Turambar was her brother, Turin.
Turin awoke and made his way back, and found out what Brandir had said, and he was pissed, so he killed Brandir after mocking him and speaking evilly, and fled. He went to Haudh-en-Elleth, and pondered what had happened.
Eventually, Mablung came up, and found him alive. He told them that the dragon was dead, and how. Mablung was surprised, and when Turin told asked them for tidings of his kin, he told him what had happened. So he knew everything was true. He told mablung to go back to Doriath sending curses with him.
Then he went to Cabed-en-Aras and drew his sword:

Quote:
”Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Turin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?”
and the sword said
Quote:
“Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.”
Then the blade took him, and was happy to do so.

Mablung and his elves saw everything, and they burned the dragon, and laid Turin in a mound, and thereon was carved in the runes of Doriath:

Quote:
TURIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA
and under this:

Quote:
NIENOR NINIEL
Whew.
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Old 03-06-2004, 12:36 PM   #5
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Discussion Points:
How much did fate and the doom of Melkor have to do with what happened to Turin all the time, and how much was pride on his part?

Compare Of Turin Turambar to Odipheus (Sp?), in terms of fate and such.

What exactly, other than killing the Dragon, did Turin accomplish, and was Gwindor right (for the lives, not the story) when he said that he shouldn’t have rescued him from the orcs, or if he had died, instead of his ill-fated sister, Lalaith.

And discuss anything else, because I’m not too good at coming up with discussion points, due to the fact that I really havent had pratice discussing anything or writing papers in about for year. Also, please add any additional reading you can think of, for I have a limited supply of books.

Enjoy
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Old 03-06-2004, 02:39 PM   #6
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Wow, there is just so much that happens in this chapter. I think it is one of the best in terms of a complete and cohesive storyline. There is more narrative and less description than in other chapters.
I find it to be very operatic, in that the story and actions of the characters so closely resemble that of an opera: you have a tragic hero (who has a catchy sounding name that's fun to say ), an ill-fated love affair marred by taboo (though unintentional), the killing of the best friend, betrayal, seedy characters, larger-than-life bad guys, and suicides a-plenty.
I'll have to respond to the discussion points later, no time at the moment. But thanks for doing the intro, Beor!
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Old 03-06-2004, 03:27 PM   #7
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Lovely intro Beor!

Some more additional readings:
HoME 4, The Quenta ch. 12 and 13 - a short account on Turin's life.
HoME 11, The grey annals year 473 to 499, with commentaries.

Will respond more later.
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Old 03-07-2004, 05:57 AM   #8
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Gimli

Well, I tried to do a good job, there was a lot of information there, and it was hard to get it all into something small enough to not be the entire chaper 21, but I did my best, so hell.

I do love this chapter, it is probably one of my favorite stories too. It is tragic, like you said, and it is just an all around great story. I wish I had the materials that Artanis was talking about, so I could make it more complete. Hopefully I did a good job, havent written a paper in years.
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Old 03-07-2004, 09:41 AM   #9
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My goodness! I'm impressed soldier!
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Old 03-07-2004, 07:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Compare Of Túrin Turambar to Odipheus (Sp?), in terms of fate and such.
Wohoooooo. This is one of my favorite subjects, where Greek Myth joins the world of Middle-Earth.
Let's begin with Túrin: We have here a man, who had the misfortune of being separated from his family at a very early age. He was raised by an Elvish King (granted that the Elvish king was Elwë), who's pride and fate (Curse of Melkor) caused a great deal of damage to his life, he in the end, fell in love with his sister (unknown to him of course and even got her pregnant is some versions). And you could note that (Morgoth/Oracle) is the main driving force in both dramas.
When he finally learns the truth, he kills himself.

Now as to Oedipus in the play Oedipus the King. Oedipus was the son of the King of Thebes Laius and his wife Jocasta. The Oracle told Laius that he should kill his son, but instead of killing him outright, he gave him to a servant of him that instead of killing him, gave him away to another person. He eventually became the foster son of the King of Corinth
From Oedipus the King
Quote:
OEDIPUS Aye, 'tis no secret. Loxias once foretold
That I should mate with mine own mother, and shed
With my own hands the blood of my own sire.
Hence Corinth was for many a year to me
A home distant; and I trove abroad,
But missed the sweetest sight, my parents' face.
Oedipus, unknown to him, in his way to flee from this destiny, fled from Corinth and came to Thebes. In the way, he endep up killing the King Laius (his true father) without really knowing him. And he ended up beating the riddle of the Sphinx and thus being awarded the throne of Thebes (The City of the Seven doors, and we have Gondolin the city of the Seven Names. Hmmmmmm)
His very actions guided him to the fate proclaimed by the Oracle:
Quote:
ibid.
"Laius," she cried, and called her husband dead
Long, long ago; her thought was of that child
By him begot, the son by whom the sire
Was murdered and the mother left to breed
With her own seed, a monstrous progeny.
Then she bewailed the marriage bed whereon
Poor wretch, she had conceived a double brood,
Husband by husband, children by her child.
What happened after that I cannot tell,
There was a situation in Thebes that there was a curse of the Gods because of an unholy thing that happened in Thebes. Oedipus sent Creon to the Oracle for some hint to find an answer to alleviate the situation in Thebes. All that they needed to do was to:
Quote:
ibid.
CREON Let me report then all the god declared.
King Phoebus bids us straitly extirpate
A fell pollution that infests the land,
And no more harbor an inveterate sore.
Note: King Phoebus is Apollo.
The thing that Oedipus didn't know is that he was the pollution that felled the land.

As the tragedy continues, he comes to realize that the man that he killed was his father Laius, and by guessing the riddle of the Sphinx, he became king of Thebes and married his mother. His mother/wife knowing this, killed herself, and Oedipus blinded himself and begged Creon to let him leave into exile.

The interesting thing is that it was Oedipus insistence and pride that eventually lead him to know the whole truth.

As with Túrin, he defeated a great Monster (Glaurung/ Sphinx). They both married someone in their family (sister/mother), their pride led them, but it is to be noted that to me at least, it seems that Oedipus was a victim of fate, that he had very little chance of beating the odds, while Túrin, although being cursed by Morgoth, he was the artificer of his own downfall because of his pride.

It is to be noted that Oedipus the King, was the first tragedy of a trilogy that continues with Oedipus at Colonus and Antigone.
As a funny side note, in Antigone, the people at Thebes want to bury Oedipus in Thebes because there is a belief that the city that has the body of Oedipus buried cannot be conquered. After driving him away at first in the end they want to bury his body in there.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 03-08-2004, 05:10 AM   #11
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Thanks for the intro, Beor!

And yes, that comparisson with Oedipus is very interesting. Good job you too, Maedhros. Yet, I see both characters as victim of fate. I don't think it's Turin's pride what leads him to ruin.

It's true that without he was a proud man, and that pride led him into some evil actions, but I don't think that he can be made responsible of his doom. It is the curse of Morgoth what brought the doom on him.

While in Oedipus the oracle just announce the fate, here Glaurung helps to "make" the fate: he tells lies to Túrin in order to accomplish his task: to ruin the House of Húrin.

Túrin changes names trying to escape from his doom, yet as Gwindor says:
Quote:
The doom lies in yourself, not in your name
But then, who is Túrin? If his names are all covers, which is his true identity?
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Though he be indeed agarwaen son of úmarth, his right name is Túrin son of Húrin, whom Morgoth holds in Angband, and whose kin he has cursed.
The curse of Morgoth is part of his true identity as son of Húrin. He cannot escape to that.
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Old 03-08-2004, 05:56 AM   #12
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I disagree with you there, man. I think that Turin was for the most part responsible for his actions, and the Doom of Morgoth didnt go any further than him sending the dragon to screw with Turin and his kin.

I think that Turin let the Doom of Morgoth be an excuse so that he didnt have to blame himself for his deeds, which were for the most part, either by accident or a result of his pride.

The bridge at Nargothrond, his unwillingness to go back to Doriath, not telling anyone his name (though this was also for the hiding from Morgoth, and no one can really blame him for that), and killing Brandir, they were all the cause of pride, not fate or doom. That was Turins free will at work.

The death of Beleg was an accident, however unfortunate, and that may have been cast in fate, or doom, or whatever, but Melian told him when she gave him the sword that it had a black heart.

It was pretty set up by Morgoth, though, he played on Turins pride when he sent the Dragon, not on fate. Morgoth sent the dragon to mess with Turin, and to bring ruin to the lands, but it says that the will of Morgoth was accomplished right after Glaurung talks to Turin at the fall of Nargothrond.
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Last edited by Beor : 03-08-2004 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 03-08-2004, 09:09 AM   #13
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And yes, that comparisson with Oedipus is very interesting. Good job you too, Maedhros. Yet, I see both characters as victim of fate. I don't think it's Turin's pride what leads him to ruin.
Thanks. I'm a real fan of Greek Myth. But I still think that it was Túrin's pride that drove him in the end.

Túrin went to Doriath and was raised there. He fled because of the incident with Saeros and joined with a band of outlaws. Beleg found him and told him that he could return back safely to Doriath and that he had received the pardon of Thingol. But why didn’t Túrin come back? It was because of his pride.
Quote:
"That may be, if fall you call it," said Túrin. "That may be. But so it went; and words stuck in my throat. There was reproof in his eyes, without question asked of me, for a deed I had not done. My Man's heart was proud, as the Elf-king said. And so it still is, Beleg Cúthalion. Not yet will it suffer me to go back to Menegroth and bear looks of pity and pardon, as for a wayward boy amended. I should give pardon, not receive it. And I am a boy no longer, but a man, according to my kind; and a hard man by my fate."
Why didn’t Morwen and Nienor stay in Doriath? It was because they were too proud to do so.
Quote:
"No," said Nienor. "It is long since I was a child. I have a will and wisdom of my own, though until now it has not crossed yours. I go with you. Rather to Doriath, for reverence of those that rule it; but if not, then westward. Indeed, if either of us should go on, it is I rather, in the fullness of strength."
Then Morwen saw in the grey eyes of Nienor the steadfastness of Húrin; and she wavered, but she could not overcome her pride, and would not seem thus (save the fair words) to be led back by her daughter, as one old and doting.
Why was Túrin daunted by Glaurung?
Quote:
For fear of that helm all foes avoided him, and thus it was that he came off unhurt from that deadly field. It was thus that he came back to Nargothrond wearing the Dragon-helm, and Glaurung, desiring to rid Túrin of its aid and protection (since he himself feared it), taunted him, saying that surely Túrin claimed to be his vassal and retainer, since he bore his master's likeness on the crest of his helm.
But Túrin answered: "Thou liest, and knowest it. For this image was made in scorn of thee; and while there one to bear it doubt shall ever assail thee, lest the bearer deal thee thy doom."
"Then it must await a master of another name," said Glaurung; "for Túrin son of Húrin I do not fear. Otherwise is it. For he has not the hardihood to look me in the face, openly."
And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye.
Quotes are taken from the Narn.

If you make wrong choices, the outcome will be bad. It was their pride that was their undoing.
Quote:
And her heart still cheated her with hope unadmitted; her inmost thought foreboded that Húrin was not dead, and she listened for his footfall in the sleepless watches of the night, or would wake thinking that she had heard in the courtyard the neigh of Arroch his horse. Moreover though she was willing that her son should be fostered in the halls of another, after the manner of that time, she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king.
It was the pride of their family that was their undoing.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Beor
Discussion Points:
How much did fate and the doom of Melkor have to do with what happened to Turin all the time, and how much was pride on his part?
This is a very good question. I tend to agree with those who say it was mostly Morgoth's curse and not Túrin's pride which led him to such a grievous end. It may be that the choices Túrin made during his life added to his misery, but what if he had chosen differently, would not then the curse have found other ways to ruin his life? Morgoth had much power at that time.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
But why didn’t Túrin come back? It was because of his pride.
Not only his pride I think. Túrin was a stranger in Doriath. He longed to be with his own people, and whatever one may say about the band of outlaws those men were his kin.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:21 AM   #15
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I must also say this: If you like the story of Túrin from the Sil, get a copy of UT and read the Narn! It's soooo much better. The story is detailed, and Túrin is so much more a real person in there, as are also the other characters.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
It may be that the choices Túrin made during his life added to his misery, but what if he had chosen differently, would not then the curse have found other ways to ruin his life?
I cannot agree more.

Also the "proud family" did make some good choices IMHO: sending Túrin to Doriath, going also Morwen and Nienor to Doriath, Nienor going after her mother when she went seeking for Túrin, Túrin's deeds at Dol-Cúarthol...

And some actions that we deem wrong were perhaps wrong because of their doom: the building of the Bridge...
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Old 03-09-2004, 09:52 AM   #17
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Morwen's pride in sending Turin to Thingols court, rather than to Brethil as had been the plan of Hurin, was a mistake. Turins pride and vanity would have had less venue for development and self destrutive expression among the woodsmens with their lifstyle and partly democratic systems, than among the rich and vain court of Thingol and its intriques.
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Old 03-09-2004, 11:48 AM   #18
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And some actions that we deem wrong were perhaps wrong because of their doom: the building of the Bridge...
I think that characters have to take responsability for their actions. As I have posted before, there are some actions that Túrin could have done differently that would have affected the outcome of his life diferently.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days
Quote:
But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
If Ilúvatar gave to Men the ability to shape their lives, beyond the Music of the Ainur, do you really think that Melkor could out do Ilúvatar?
The obvious answer is no.
From the Narn
Quote:
"You say it," said Morgoth. "I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of all the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."
The Curse of Morgoth was to bring darkness and despair to the family of Húrin. Certainly Nienor and Túrin died with despair, but not her mother Morwen.
Morwen knowing that her sons were dead, and that his husband was a prisioner of Angband without no real hope of escape, instead of dying, she waited and waited, and at last Húrin came:
From the Wanderings of Húrin
Quote:
But Húrin did not look at the stone, for he knew what was written there, and, his eyes had seen that he was not alone. Sitting in the shadow of the stone there was a figure bent over its knees Some homeless wanderer broken with age it seemed, too wayworn to heed his coming; but its rags were the remnants of a woman's garb. At length as Húrin stood there silent she cast back her tattered hood and lifted up her face slowly, haggard and hungry as a long-hunted wolf. Grey she was, sharp-nosed with broken teeth, and with a lean hand she clawed at the cloak upon her breast. But suddenly her eyes looked into his, and then Húrin knew her; for though they were wild now and full of fear, a light still gleamed in them hard to endure: the elven-light that long ago had earned her her name, Eðelwen, proudest of mortal women in the days of old.
'Eðelwen! Eðelwen!' Húrin cried; and she rose and stumbled forward, and he caught her in his arms.
'You come at last,' she said. 'I have waited too long.
'It was a dark road. I have come as I could,' he answered.
'But you are late,' she said, 'too late. They are lost.'
'I know,' he said. 'But thou art not.'
'Almost,' she said. 'I am spent utterly. I shall go with the sun. They are lost.' She clutched at his cloak. 'Little time is left,' she said. 'If you know, tell me! How did she find him?'
But Húrin did not answer, and he sat beside the stone with Morwen in his arms; and they did not speak again. The sun went down, and Morwen sighed and clasped his hand and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died.
So passed Morwen the proud and fair; and Húrin looked down at her in the twilight, and it seemed that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. Cold and pale and stem was her face. 'She was not conquered,' he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat on unmoving beside her as night drew down.
After everything that happened, she had estel.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 03-09-2004, 01:31 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Maedhros
I think that characters have to take responsability for their actions.
I don't think anyone disagree with you in this. At least I don't. It is also clear that Túrin was a prideful man, and his deeds were not all good. But I do not think it would have helped him much if he had been less prideful. He could not have escaped his doom. Whatever actions he might have taken, Morgoth would have pursued him and his family to fulfill the curse.
Quote:
If Ilúvatar gave to Men the ability to shape their lives, beyond the Music of the Ainur, do you really think that Melkor could out do Ilúvatar?
The obvious answer is no.
But this ability of Men is not unlimited. They have this virtue but are nonetheless affected by the world around them. Moreover, the lives of the great Men of the Edain, Túrin, Húrin, Beren and Tuor, were all woven into the doom of the Noldor. All Túrin could do was to fight against the darkness that had been laid upon him, which he did.
Quote:
The Curse of Morgoth was to bring darkness and despair to the family of Húrin. Certainly Nienor and Túrin died with despair, but not her mother Morwen.
...
After everything that happened, she had estel.
Morwen was a great woman, though one may say she also was too much guided by her pride. But her son Túrin also fought against his doom until the very end, and then despair took him only when he found that he had married his sister, and brought dead upon her and their unborn child. And this was something Morwen did NOT know.
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Old 03-09-2004, 03:13 PM   #20
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Well, I tried to do a good job, there was a lot of information there, and it was hard to get it all into something small enough to not be the entire chaper 21, but I did my best, so hell.

I do love this chapter, it is probably one of my favorite stories too. It is tragic, like you said, and it is just an all around great story. I wish I had the materials that Artanis was talking about, so I could make it more complete. Hopefully I did a good job, havent written a paper in years.
Well done Beor. I love the way you have worded your summary. I even got a chuckle picturing Glaurung chilling by the river.

This is one of my favorite chapters as well. There is a lot to think about.
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