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Old 03-29-2004, 10:43 AM   #1
Finrod Felagund
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Of the Ruin of Doriath

Of the Ruin of Doriath

This chapter begins with what is really a sort of ending for the last chapter.

Quote:
The Silmarillion
So ended the tale of Túrin Turambar; but Morgoth did not sleep nor rest from evil, and his dealings with the house of Hador were not yet ended. Against them his malice was unsated, though Húrin was under his eye, and Morwen wandered distraught in the wild.
(A slight aside, we know what Húrin’s been up to but what had been Morwen been doing, wandering yes, but how was she surviving? Hunting? Begging? Just a little something it would have been interesting to know.)

Now clearly, Húrin wasn’t a happy camper, because he saw all that Morgoth had done to his family, but this was seen in the way Morgoth wanted him to see it, and Morgoth tried to throw a bad light on Thingol and Melian’s part in the whole thing. But he decided it was time to let Húrin go and see of what use he could be put. He (very badly apparently) feigned mercy. Húrin was no idiot, and clearly saw through Morgoth’s act, but thus being no idiot, also took his freedom.
This was a year after Túrin’s death, and a full 28 years since the fateful day of the Nirnaeth when Húrin was captured.
He was old, and looked it, but stood tall and proud, walked with a staff and carried a sword. In Hithlum the Easterlings left him alone, as did the remainders of his own people (because they thought him in league with Angband.) Húrin was an extremely bitter man by now, but wandered somewhat aimlessly until he saw the Crissaegrim, and remembered Turgon. So he went to what was (unbeknownst to him) the remainder of the old way of escape, now blocked, and he could not see the eagles. So he called out, but Turgon feared Húrin’s allegiance as well. Later he sent eagles to find him, but he was gone. This also was how Morgoth discovered the general area of Gondolin.

One night while sleeping he heard Morwen calling to him and it seemed as if her voice was coming from Brethil, so he went there, and found her on the night of her death.

Quote:
The Silmarillion
Grey she was and old, but suddenly her eyes looked into his, and he knew her; for though they were wild and full of fear, that light still gleamed in them that long ago had earned her the name Eledhwen, proudest and most beautiful of mortal women in the days of old.
They said little to each other, and she passed at sunset holding his hand and the years seemed to fade from her. (what a sad and beautiful image, after 28 plus years, he arrived just in time to hold her hand as she died, at the grave of their son and daughter)
Quote:
The Silmarillion
“She was not conquered”
He buried her near the stone and wrote her name along with their children’s’.
It is interesting that a minstrel wrote a seemingly prophetic song, which stated that, this mound and stone would remain, and it was not submerged in Beleriand’s ruin, and became Tol Morwen.
Quote:
The Silmarillion
But Húrin does not lie there, for his doom drove him on, and the shadow still followed him.
Hurin found his way to Nargothrond, where Mim the petty dwarf sat in Glaurung’s hoard of Finrod’s treasure.
Quote:
The Silmarillion
“Who are you, who would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?”
He killed Mim, and took only one treasure. Then he went to Doriath, where he mockingly presented to Thingol the Nauglamír.
Quote:
Excerpt from Robert Foster’s “The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth"
Nauglamír (Sindarin=dwarf necklace) Gold necklace made for Finrod by the dwarves of the Ered Luin (probably of Nogrod) in the 1st century FA (First Age), the most renowned of their works in that age. Set with many gems brought by Finrod from Valinor, the Nauglamír sat lightly on the neck despite its great weight and gave grace and beauty to its wearer.
Thingol restrained his anger at his insult and Melian explained that Húrin’s family had been only treated well. At this point Húrin apologized and presented the Nauglamír to Thingol (for real this time). And left Menegroth free of Morgoth’s lies, and so in great woe. Eventually, with nothing to live for, he cast himself into the western sea.
Quote:
The Silmarillion
and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal men

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Old 03-29-2004, 10:46 AM   #2
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Thingol sat for a while after and thought how gorgeous the necklace was and how hot he would look wearing it, especially if the Silmaril was set amidst the other jewels. So he asked some dwarves visiting to take that task. And so what were considered the greatest crafting of dwarves and elves were to be mated (metaphorically of course.) And by Jove, when they finished, the necklace was hot stuff.

But the dwarves wanted it, and Thingol said some stuff that really pissed them off, and that on top of the Silmaril’s lure was too much, and they killed Elwe Thingol, first king of a Beleriandic kingdom and tallest of the Eldar. The dwarves attempted to escape but most were killed and the necklace retrieved. However, a couple escaped, got home to Nogrod and gave a bogus story about how they were wrongfully attacked. So the dwarves of Nogrod marched on Doriath. (Tolkien indicated elsewhere that they asked their neighbours, the dwarves of Belegost for help but were refused.)

Melian sat for a long time, contemplating her relationship with Thingol, but eventually decided to return to Valinor. She spoke only to Mablung, giving him the Nauglamír and telling him to get word to Beren and Luthien, which he did.
Quote:
The Silmarillion
and (she) passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lorien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more.
Eventually the Naugrim reached Doriath, attacked, killed Mablung (and many others) and took the necklace (containing the Silmaril remember) and all the other treasure.
However, Beren, Dior and the Green elves of Ossiriand ambushed them with the only recorded instance of Ents outside the Third Age, (they destroyed any escaping dwarves.) Beren slew the king of Nogrod and washed the Nauglamír of blood, but the treasure of Doriath he dumped in the river, because the dwarf king cursed it. He took the necklace back to Luthien, and when she wore the Silmaril, set within the wondrous gems and gold, she became the most beautiful being outside of Valinor.

Dior, and his wife Nimloth (one of Celeborn’s relatives) went and reclaimed Doriath. But one day a green-elf arrived at Menegroth, and brought the Nauglamír, indicating the death of Beren and Luthien.
Dior then clasped it around his neck, but word of the Silmaril came to Feanor’s sons (remember them? It’s been a while eh?) And Celegorm (note: not Maehdros or Maglor) led the brothers in an attack on Doriath.
Dior and Nimloth were both killed, as were Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir. And Dior’s sons, Elured and Elurin were left to die in the woods. (Maglor later tried to find them, unsuccessfully.) This was the second slaying of elf by elf. And it is interesting to note that even with the Dagor Bragollach, and the Nirnaeth etc., none of the sons of Feanor died until the attack on Doriath.

Quote:
The Silmarillion
Thus Doriath was destroyed, and never rose again. But the sons of Feanor gained not what they sought; for a remnant of the people fled before them, and with them was Elwing, Dior’s daughter, and they escaped, and bearing with them the Silmaril they came in time to the mouths of Sirion by the sea.

Wow…sorry it’s a bit long (and late) but covers a lot…

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Old 03-29-2004, 10:48 AM   #3
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Discussion Questions

1. Three very fascinating yet underrated characters make their exits here…lets discuss
a) Morwen…what did Hurin mean “She was not conquered”? Was it because, unlike her children, she refused to take her own life? How about her beauty, she must’ve been pretty hot eh?
b) Melian…what exactly was the Girdle? Was she unable or unwilling to remain after Thingol’s death? Compare her exit here to that in BoLT (those who can). (In BoLT, she wanders in grief until she is found by Beren and healed by Luthien, at which point she leaves.)
c) Mablung of the heavy hand…he seemed to be assigned the role of a gopher much of the time, but was friendly to Turin, and a participant in the Hunting of the Wolf. Also, with Beleg, he was the only one from Doriath to participate in the Battles with the Noldor.

They are all such rich characters, who could’ve been cool to have seen developed more.

2. Why would the grave of Turin, Nienor and Morwen be one of the parts of Beleriand to remain unsunken? (Here’s another example of prophecy in the Atani. It was a minstrel of Brethil.) What gave it such a privilege?

3. Discuss some “What ifs…”
What if Turgon had sent the eagles to fetch Hurin immediately? What if Dior (or Thingol for that matter) had given the Silmaril to Feanor’s sons? Etc.

4. Why did Celegorm lead the attack on Doriath rather than Maehdros or Maglor?

Miscelllaneous: Hurin in general, Thingol in general, the inclusion of ents in the ambush of the dwarves, the continuing impact of Finrod and his life and death
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Old 03-29-2004, 11:26 AM   #4
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Text sources to use in this Chapter:
The Tale of the Nauglafring in HoME 2.
The Tale of Turambar in HoME 2.
Sketch of the Mythology in HoME 4.
Quenta Noldorinwa in HoME4.
The Wanderings of Húrin in HoME 11.
The Tale of Years in HoME 11.

We now know that it was Dírhavel, the mannish poet from Dor-Lomin who wrote the Narn. There is a thread that discusses that more in detail.
I wanted to point out something very interesting in this chapter. When CT was doing the work in putting up a Published Silmarillion, this was the chapter that was the most difficult to do. Look at the note in the End of the Tale of Years in HoME 11:
Quote:
Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, all that my father ever wrote on the subject of the ruin of Doriath has now been set out: from the original story told in the Tale of Turambar (II.113-15) and the Tale of the Nauglafring (II.221 ff.), through the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.32-3, with commentary 61-3) and the Quenta (IV.132-4, with commentary 187-91), together with what little can be gleaned from The Tale of Years and a very few later references (see especially pp. 352-3). If these materials are compared with the story told in The Silmarillion it is seen at once that this latter is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's own writings.
There were very evident problems with the old story. Had he ever turned to it again, my father would undoubtedly have found some solution other than that in the Quenta to the question, How was the treasure of Nargothrond brought to Doriath? There, the curse that Mîm laid upon the gold at his death 'came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.' As I said in IV.188, 'it ruins the gesture, if Húrin must get the king himself to send for the gold with which he is then to be humiliated'. It seems to me most likely (but this is mere speculation) that my father would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (11.113-15,222-3) as the bearers of the treasure (though not the fierce battle between them and the Elves of the Thousand Caves): in the scrappy writings at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin Asgon and his companions reappear after the disaster in Brethil and go with Húrin to Nargothrond (pp. 306-7).
How he would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say. That story was only once told fully, in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint (precursor of Thingol) was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king (see II.245-6). In the Sketch no more is said of the matter than that the Dwarves were 'driven away without payment', while in the Quenta 'Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls'. There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing (in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves'), unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p. 353: Celeborn in his view of the destruction of Doriath ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'.
In The Tale of Years my father seems not to have considered the problem of the passage of the Dwarvish host into Doriath despite the Girdle of Melian, but in writing the word 'cannot' against the D version (p. 352) he showed that he regarded the story he had outlined as impossible, for that reason. In another place he sketched a possible solution (ibid.): 'Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.'
In the story that appears in The Silmarillion the outlaws who went with Húrin to Nargothrond were removed, as also was the curse of Mîm; and the only treasure that Húrin took from Nargothrond was the Nauglamîr - which was here supposed to have been made by Dwarves for Finrod Felagund, and to have been the most prized by him of all the hoard of Nargothrond. Húrin was represented as being at last freed from the delusions inspired by Morgoth in his encounter with Melian in Menegroth. The Dwarves who set the Silmaril in the Nauglamîr were already in Menegroth engaged on other works, and it was they who slew Thingol; at that time Melian's power was with-drawn from Neldoreth and Region, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, leaving Doriath unprotected. The ambush and destruction of the Dwarves at Sarn Athrad was given again to Beren and the Green Elves (following my father's letter of 1963 quoted on p. 353, where however he said that 'Beren had no army'), and from the same source the Ents, 'Shepherds of the Trees', were introduced.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 03-29-2004, 11:49 AM   #5
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a) Morwen…what did Hurin mean “She was not conquered”? Was it because, unlike her children, she refused to take her own life? How about her beauty, she must’ve been pretty hot eh?
I think that it is because in part of what you said and in part because after all that happened, she always retained estel that Húrin would return to her.
Quote:
b) Melian…what exactly was the Girdle? Was she unable or unwilling to remain after Thingol’s death? Compare her exit here to that in BoLT (those who can). (In BoLT, she wanders in grief until she is found by Beren and healed by Luthien, at which point she leaves.)
As for the Girdle of Melian in the Tale of the Nauglafring it think it is best to see the commentary by CT of it:
Quote:
Gwendelin/Gwenniel appears a somewhat faint and ineffective figure by comparison with the Melian of The Silmarillion. Conceivably, an aspect of this is the far slighter protection afforded to the realm of Artanor by her magic than that of the impenetrable wall and deluding mazes of the Girdle of Melian (see p. 63). But the nature of the protection in the old conception is very unclear. In the Tale of the Nauglafring the coming of the Dwarves from Nogrod is only known when they approach the bridge before Tinwelint's caves (p. 226); on the other hand, it is said (p. 230) that the 'woven magic' of the queen was a defence against 'men of hostile heart', who could never make their way through the woods unless aided by treachery from within. Perhaps this provides an explanation of a sort of how the Dwarves bringing treasure from Nogrod were able to penetrate to the halls of Tinwelint without hindrance and apparently undetected (cf. also the coming of Úrin's band in the Tale of Turambar, p. 114). In the event, the protective magic was easily -- too easily -- overthrown by the simple device of a single treacherous Elf of Artanor who 'offered to lead the host through the magics of Gwendelin'. This was evidently unsatisfactory; but I shall not enter further into this question here. Extraordinary difficulties of narrative structure were caused by this element of the inviolability of Doriath, as I hope to describe at a future date.
This is indeed the real problem when dealing with the Ruin of Doriath. How where the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost (later only those of Nogrod) be able to defeat the Girdle of Melian? There of course would be no Ufedhin (he did not seem to have survived in the account of the Quenta). CT did an ingenious thing nonetheless, he made those dwarves already working on Menegroth at the time of the arrival of Húrin.
One thing to remember is that the account of the Quenta (chapter 14) it is indeed very much reduced when compared to the Tale of the Nauglafring.

I think that one of the most important thing that really moved me where the words in the Tale of Turambar when Húrin speaks with Thingol:
Quote:
Yet in the end that laden host came to the bridge before the doors, and being asked by the guards Úrin said: "Say to the king that Úrin the Steadfast is come bearing gifts," and this was done. Then Úrin let bear all that magnificence before the king, but it was hidden in sacks or shut in boxes of rough wood; and Tinwelint greeted Úrin with joy and with amaze and bid him thrice welcome, and he and all his court arose in honour of that lord of Men; but Úrin's heart was blind by reason of his tormented years and of the lies of Melko, and he said: “Nay, O King, I do not desire to hear such words -- but say only, where is Mavwin my wife, and knowest thou what death did Nienóri my daughter die?” And Tinwelint said that he knew not.
Then did Úrin fiercely tell that tale, and the king and all his folk about him hid their faces for great ruth, but Úrin said: "Nay,35 had you such a heart as have the least of Men, never would they have been lost; but lo, I bring you now a payment in full for the troubles of your puny band that went against Glorund the drake, and deserting gave up my dear ones to his power. Gaze, O Tinwelint, sweetly on my gifts, for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains."
Then did men cast down that treasury at the king's feet, uncovering it so that all that court were dazzled and amazed – but Úrin's men understood now what was forward and were little pleased. "Behold the hoard of Glorund," said Úrin, "bought by the death of Nienóri with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm. Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches."
Also a point to remember that in the Tale, there is no Menegroth, the Elves of Thingol were almost woodland elves, they were very rudimentary.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:56 PM   #6
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Nice intro FF!
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Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
Morwen…what did Hurin mean “She was not conquered”? Was it because, unlike her children, she refused to take her own life?
I think it was because she never gave up hope, and never ceased to fight against the evil that invaded her life.
Quote:
How about her beauty, she must’ve been pretty hot eh?
Pretty yes, but what distinguished her from other women was the light in her eyes. I guess she was not called Elfsheen for nothing.
Quote:
Why did Celegorm lead the attack on Doriath rather than Maehdros or Maglor?
But did he really? I know that the ToY says he roused the other brothers, but I would think Maedhros took the lead once they had decided to attack.

Also, I've never read anywhere that it was Maglor and not Maedhros who searched for Dior's sons. Where do you take that from?

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...and how hot he would look wearing it, ...
LOL!
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Old 04-09-2004, 05:06 AM   #7
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I think it's a heartbreaking irony that it is Húrin who initiates the fall of both Gondolin and Doriath, and also the ruin of his homeland, Brethil. Because of Morgoth's cunning evil, disaster is following in his footsteps.

Poor Húrin.
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Old 04-09-2004, 03:07 PM   #8
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I think it's a heartbreaking irony that it is Húrin who initiates the fall of both Gondolin and Doriath, and also the ruin of his homeland, Brethil. Because of Morgoth's cunning evil, disaster is following in his footsteps.
In a sense that is true, but if not for Húrin, Gondolin would have fallen way earlier. In the case of Doriath, you can't really blame Húrin for it. I would say that the fall of Doriath came when Thingol asked for the Silmaril from Beren.
I would also say that it was awesome the way that Húrin could withstand all that torment that Morgoth put on him over those 28 years in Angband.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 04-09-2004, 03:38 PM   #9
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Originally posted by Maedhros
In a sense that is true, but if not for Húrin, Gondolin would have fallen way earlier. In the case of Doriath, you can't really blame Húrin for it. I would say that the fall of Doriath came when Thingol asked for the Silmaril from Beren.
I don't blame Húrin, I'm just pointing out that wherever he went he bore with him the curse of Morgoth, in much the same way as Túrin did.

Húrin is different in the HoME books, not so clear-cut a hero as in the Sil, but he is still my favourite Adan.
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Old 04-09-2004, 04:09 PM   #10
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Originally posted by Maedhros
In a sense that is true, but if not for Húrin, Gondolin would have fallen way earlier.
Morgoth would have located its general vicinity sooner or later. He has scout and spies crawlling all over the lands, and someone back at Angband IS going to notice that all of those sent to a particular area vanish mysteriously or are driven away by Eagles.
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Old 04-09-2004, 04:17 PM   #11
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Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Morgoth would have located its general vicinity sooner or later. He has scout and spies crawlling all over the lands, and someone back at Angband IS going to notice that all of those sent to a particular area vanish mysteriously or are driven away by Eagles.
Yet later is better than sooner. And I guess someone back at Angband thought the whereabouts of Turgon to be much further south, and not in the close neighborhood.
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Old 04-09-2004, 06:08 PM   #12
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Quoted by Maedhros from HoME 11, Tale of Years:
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There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing (in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves'), unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p. 353: Celeborn in his view of the destruction of Doriath ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'.
That was a nice little piece of information which I had forgot about. It refers to UT, Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn:
Quote:
Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath; but it was only the host of Nogrod that took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle of Sam Athrad {The Silmarillion pp. 233-5]. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm. Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.
So Celeborn was blind to anything else than the greed of the Dwarves, and he did not bother to distinguish between Nogrod and Belegost. Shame on him.
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Old 04-20-2004, 04:00 PM   #13
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I feel so bad for Hurin! And I don't think badly of either Morwen nor Turin for what some consider their displays of pride. Who's to say things would have come out any better for them even if they had NOT been so proud? Morgoth was STILL doing all he could to make their lives miserable, so he could watch Hurin suffer for knowledge of it.

Then when Hurin is finally released, he's so broken he just can't do anything right. But the son he left as a small boy has become a great hero - and died needlessly after achieving his greatest deed. The daughter he never knew lost her memory long enough to cause grief and shame - all by innocent ignorance. His other daughter was long dead - gone while he was away. His wife stayed faithful and true, but was worn away by age and hardship. What a sad, tragic man. What loss he has endured. He knows he will have no grand-children, that his line is ended (though his brother's line will go on to greatness, unbeknownst to him).

His actions in this chapter are so sad - but so easy to understand: killing Nim, quarreling with Thingol (not always an admirable character himself) and calling out to Turgon...

So sad. Such a display of how evil can be at work in the life of a man - even how the evil of another can destroy the life of a man.

Such a tragic figure.
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Old 03-01-2007, 03:16 AM   #14
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Thingol seems suprisingly hot-headed sometimes...considering he is known to be so wise.
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:15 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Valandil View Post
And I don't think badly of either Morwen nor Turin for what some consider their displays of pride. Who's to say things would have come out any better for them even if they had NOT been so proud?
I say so.
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Old 05-28-2012, 09:07 PM   #16
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I say so.
So you wait eight years, then want to start a fight over it!
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:16 PM   #17
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Consider how many more persons could have died fighting Morgoth rather than each other but for Turin's overweaning pride and sense of entitlement and priviledge, and how Morwen's holding own to the irrelevant trappings of a destroyed lordship contributed to this.
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