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Old 04-21-2004, 01:15 AM   #1
Maedhros
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Chapter 23: Of the Fall of Gondolin

Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl

This story deals mostly with Tuor son of Huor. It begins as Tuor is raised by Elves (Grey-Elves, Annael). Unfortunately for Tuor, he was captured by the Easterlings and made a slave. The good thing is that Tuor handled that situation elegantly and became friends with the animals and therefore was able to escape from thralldom. He met later with Elves of the house of Finarfin (Gelmir and Arminas) see the Narn for extra information, and they helped set Tuor on his quest. Tuor therefore came to Nevrast and claimed the weapons that Turgon had left them a long time ago. Tuor then meets with Ulmo and is set on his path to reach Gondolin and he meets with Voronwë, who is amazed at how Tuor knows so much about him. After Tuor reveals that he is a messenger from Ulmo, Voronwë takes him to Gondolin.
When they reach the gates, they are captured by the guard of Elemmakil. Because of the errand of Tuor and the words that Ulmo put in his mouth, Elemmakil deems that he is not fit to judge him and sets them upon the Warden of the Great Gate, who at that time happened to be Echtelion.
Later Tuor
Quote:
"You have come to the Last Gate. Know then that no stranger who passes it shall ever go out again, save by the door of death."
"Speak not ill-boding! If the messenger of the Lord of Waters go by that door, then all those who dwell here will follow him. Lord of the Fountains, hinder not the messenger of the Lord of Waters!"
Then Voronwë and all those who stood near looked again in wonder at Tuor, marvelling at his words and voice. And to Voronwë it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. But to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth.
For a while Ecthelion stood silent, looking at Tuor, and slowly awe filled his face, as if in the grey shadow of Tuor's cloak he saw visions from far away.
And so was Ecthelion convinced that he was a messenger of Ulmo and was granted entrance to the city.
Lets have a description of the city:

Quote:
"Lo, it stands fair to see and very clear, and its towers prick the heavens above the Hill of Watch in the midmost plain." Then Tuor and his companion were led over the plain that was of a marvellous level, broken but here and there by boulders round and smooth which lay amid a sward, or by pools in rocky beds. Many fair pathways lay across that plain, and they came after a day's light march to the foot of the Hill of Watch (which is in the tongue of the Noldor Amon Gwared). Then did they begin to ascend the winding stairways which climbed up to the city gate; nor might any one reach that city save on foot and espied from the walls. As the westward gate was golden in the last sunlight did they come to the long stair's head, and many eyes gazed upon them from the battlements and towers.
But Tuor looked upon the walls of stone, and the uplifted towers, upon the glistering pinnacles of the town, and he looked upon the stairs of stone and marble up to its high platform, and its great gate, bordered by slender balustrades and cooled by the leap of threadlike waterfalls seeking the plain from the fountains of Amon Gwared, and he fared as one in some dream of the Valar, for he deemed not such things were seen by men in the visions of their sleep, so great was his amaze at the glory of Gondolin.

Then did the throng return within the gates and the wanderers with them, and Tuor saw they were of iron and of great height and strength. Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers mounds of mallorns, birches, and evergreen trees were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvellously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the King’s house , and the tower thereof on a pillared arcade was the loftiest in the city, and above it flew the banner of Fingolfin and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night. The birds that dwelt there were of the whiteness of snow and their voices sweeter than a lullaby of music.
On either side of the doors of the palace were the gilded images of two trees, one of gold and the other of silver, and they were likenesse the glorious Trees of Valinor that lit those places before Morgoth and Ungoliant withered them: and those trees the Gondolindrim named Glingal and Belthil.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:19 AM   #2
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Lets mention the seven names of the city of Gondolin:
Quote:
Tuor asked the name of the city, and Elemmakil made answer: "'Tis said and 'tis sung: 'Gondost am I called and Gondothrimbar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and Gwarestrin am I named, the Tower of Guard, Garthoren or the Fenced Fort, for I am fenced from the eyes of Morgoth; but they who love me most greatly Tirion is born again, call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Loth-a-laden, the Lily that blooms on the plain.' Yet," said he, "in our daily speech we speak and we name it mostly Gondolin."
Then Tuor is brought before Turgon and he explains his embassy to him, unfortunately Turgon refuses Tuor’s (Ulmo’s) advice and prefers to stay in Gondolin hidden forever. Turgon had his excuse because he had already sent messengers from the Havens of Círdan to try to reach Valinórë, but they were unsuccessful. Although this time, he would have had the help of Ulmo himself.

So Tuor falls in love with Turgon’s daughter, Idril and they wed and have a son:
Quote:
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son and she named him Ardamírë, but his father named him Eärendil and by this name he was know ever after.
Of course, this made Maeglin hate Tuor, because he wanted to posses her cousin Idril.
Later of course, Maeglin defied the law of Gondolin and went outside to mine and was captured by Morgoth and he made a deal with him:
Quote:
Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth. Now the end of this was that Morgoth aided by the cunning of Maeglin devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this Maeglin's reward was to be the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal when that city should be taken − yet Morgoth purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise − and Maeglin was to compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did Idril would be given to Maeglin's arms − and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led Maeglin the easier to this foul treachery.
The city of Gondolin had a way of Escape, to be used in case of emergencies. It is interesting to note that in the Published Silmarillion that way is closed because of the text from the Wanderings of Húrin that stated that it was caved in. Idril who always suspected her cousing Maeglin, came up with a plan to have a new way to escape (Secret Way) that would only be know to people loyal to them. Then after it was finished, in the Gates of Summer festival, Morgoth decided to attack Gondolin:
Quote:
The sun has sunk beyond the hills and folk array them for the festival very gladly and eagerly − glancing in expectation to the East. But even when she had gone and all was dark, a new red light suddenly began, and a glow there was, but it mounted beyond the hills in the North and not in the East, and men marvelled, and there was a thronging of the walls and battlements. Then wonder grew to doubt as that light waxed and became yet redder, and doubt to dread as men saw the snow upon the mountains dyed as it were with blood. And thus it was that the fire-serpents of Morgoth came upon Gondolin.
Then Turgon called for a council:
Quote:
Then did King Turgon call a council, and thither fared Tuor and Maeglin as royal princes; and Duilin came with Egalmoth and Penlod the tall, and Rog strode thither with Galdor of the Tree and golden Glorfindel and Ecthelion of the voice of music. Thither too fared Talagand atremble at the tidings, and other nobles beside of less blood but better heart.
Unfortunately, the advice of Maeglin prevailed of that of Tuor and they decided to face the onslaught of monsters of Morgoth in Gondolin instead of fleeing the city. Maeglin seized an early opportunity to kill Eärendil and take Idril but he was defeated by Tuor:
Quote:
Now then Maeglin had Idril by the hair and sought to drag her to the battlements out of cruelty of heart, that she might see the fall of Eärendil to the flames; but he was cumbered by that child, and she fought, alone as she was, like a tigress for all her beauty and slenderness. There he now struggles and delays amid oaths while that folk of the Wing draw nigh − and lo! Tuor gives a shout so great that the Orcs hear it afar and waver at the sound of it. Like a crash of tempest the guard of the Wing were amid the men of the Mole, and these were stricken asunder. When Maeglin saw this he would stab Eärendil with a short knife he had; but that child bit his left hand, that his teeth sank in, and he staggered, and stabbed weakly, and the mail of the small coat turned the blade aside; and thereupon Tuor was upon him and his wrath was terrible to see. He seized Maeglin by that hand that held the knife and broke the arm with the wrench, and then taking him by the middle leapt with him upon the walls, and flung him far out.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

Last edited by Maedhros : 04-21-2004 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:27 AM   #3
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In those battles we know that there were some great deeds of valour:
Quote:
Then there was carnage at the barriers, and Egalmoth and Tuor went from place to place of the defence, but Ecthelion lay by the fountain; and that stand was the most stubborn-valiant that is remembered in all the songs or in any tale. Yet at long last a drake bursts the barrier to the north − and there had once been the issue of the Alley of Roses and a fair place to see or to walk in, but now there is but a lane of blackness and it is filled with noise.
Tuor stood then in the way of that beast, but was sundered from Egalmoth, and they pressed him backward even to the centre of the square nigh the fountain. There he became weary from the strangling heat and was beaten down by a great demon, even Gothmog lord of Balrogs. But lo! Ecthelion, whose face was of the pallor of grey steel and whose shield-arm hung limp at his side, strode above him as he fell; and that Elf drave at the demon, yet did not give him his death, getting rather a wound to his sword-arm that his weapon left his grasp. Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldor, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward; but those two dropped into the basin of the king's fountain which was very deep. There found that creature his bane; and Ecthelion sank steel-laden into the depths, and so perished the lord of the Fountain after fiery battle in cool waters.
And we have the deeds of the King too:
Quote:
Then did the Gondolindrim clash their weapons, for many stood nigh, but Turgon said: "Fight not against doom, O my children! Seek ye who may safety in flight, if perhaps there be time yet: but let Tuor have your lealty." But Tuor said: "Thou art king"; and Turgon made answer: "Yet no blow will I strike more", and he cast his crown at the roots of Glingal. Then did Galdor who stood there pick it up, but Turgon accepted it not, and bare of head climbed to the topmost pinnacle of that white tower that stood nigh his palace. There he shouted in a voice like a horn blown among the mountains, and all that were gathered beneath the Trees and the foemen in the mists of the square heard him: "Great is the victory of the Noldor!" And 'tis said that it was then middle night, and that the Orcs yelled in derision.
Then the conversation of Tuor and Idril:
Quote:
Then said Idril: "Woe is me whose father awaiteth doom even upon his topmost pinnacle; but seven times woe whose lord hath gone down before Morgoth and will stride home no more!" − for she was distraught with the agony of that night.
Then said Tuor: "Lo! Idril, it is I, and I live; yet now will I get thy father hence, be it from the Hells of Morgoth!" With that he would make down the hill alone, maddened by the grief of his wife; but she coming to her wits in a storm of weeping clasped his knees saying: "My lord! My lord!" and delayed him. Yet even as they spake a great noise and a yelling rose from that place of anguish. Behold, the tower leapt into a flame and in a stab of fire it fell, for the dragons crushed the base of it and all who stood there. Great was the clangour of that terrible fall, and therein passed Turgon King of the Gondolindrim, and for that hour the victory was to Morgoth.
Fortunately, Tuor and company fled the city in time:
Quote:
But of the new passage Maeglin had not heard, and it was not thought that fugitives would take a path towards the North and the highest parts of the mountains and the nighest to Angband. Thereat the fugitives, led by one [Laegolas of the house of the Tree, who knew all that plain by day or by dark, and was night-sighted, made much speed over the vale for all their weariness, and halted only after a great march. Then was all the Earth spread with the grey light of that sad dawn which looked no more on the beauty of Gondolin; but the fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North, fell upon the vale in mournful mists − and that was a marvel, for no mist or fog came there ever before. Again they rose, and covered by the vapours fared long past dawn in safety, till they were already too far away for any to descry them in those misty airs from the hill or from the ruined walls; and thus was the escape of Tuor and his company aided, for there was still a long and open road to follow from the tunnel's mouth to the foothills of the mountains
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:30 AM   #4
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´Tis is Glorfindel and the Balrog
While passing through the Cirith Thoronath, they faced some resistance
Quote:
Already the half had passed the perilous way and the falls of Thoron Sîr, when that Balrog that was with the rearward foe leapt with great might on certain lofty rocks that stood into the path on the left side upon the lip of the chasm, and thence with a leap of fury he was past Glorfindel's men and among the women and the sick in front, lashing with his whip of flame. Then Glorfindel leapt forward upon him and his golden armour gleamed strangely in the moon, and he hewed at that demon that it leapt again upon a great boulder and Glorfindel after. Now there was a deadly combat upon that high rock above the folk; and these, pressed behind and hindered ahead, were grown so close that well nigh all could see, yet was it over ere Glorfindel's men could leap to his side. The ardour of Glorfindel drave that Balrog from point to point, and his mail fended him from its whip and claw. Now had he beaten a heavy swinge upon its iron helm, now hewn off the creature's whip-arm at the elbow. Then sprang the Balrog in the torment of his pain and fear full at Glorfindel, who stabbed like a dart of a snake; but he found only a shoulder, and was grappled, and they swayed to a fall upon the crag-top. Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature); and it shrieked, and fell backwards from the rock, and falling clutched Glorfindel's yellow locks beneath his cap, and those twain fell into the abyss.
Wanderings of the Exiles
Quote:
Now who shall tell of the wanderings of Tuor and the exiles of Gondolin in the wastes that lie beyond the mountains to the north of the vale of Tumladen? Miseries were theirs and death, colds and hungers, and ceaseless watches. That they won ever through those regions infested by Morgoth's evil came from the great slaughter and damage done to his power in that assault, and from the speed and wariness with which Tuor led them.
But after wandering in which many a time they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks, they came at last upon a stream, and following this came to better lands and were a little comforted. Here did Voronwë guide them, for he had caught a whisper of Ulmo's in that stream one late summer's night − and he got ever much wisdom from the sound of waters. Now he led them even till they came down to Sirion which that stream fed.
Yet came they at last to the great pools and the edges of Nan-Tathren that most tender Land of Willows; and the very breath of the winds thereof brought rest and peace to them, and for the comfort of that place the grief was assuaged of those who mourned the dead in that great fall. There women and maids grew fair again and their sick were healed, and old wounds ceased to pain; yet they alone who of reason feared their folk living still in bitter thraldom in the Hells of Iron sang not, nor did they smile.
and at last the exiles reached the Sirions Mouth, and so ends our tale.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:39 AM   #5
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Sources used:
Fall of Gondolin in HoME 2.
Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin in UT.
Wanderings of Húrin in HoME 11.
Quenta Noldorinwa in HoME 4.
Horns of Ylmir in HoME 4.

Questions on this chapter:
1. It is interesting to note that Turgon acted in some convinient ways:
a. He listened to Ulmo's advice to build Gondolin.
b. He listened to Húrin's and Huor's advice to flee to Gondolin.
Yet, when there were things that he didn't want to hear we have:
a. He didn't allow Húrin entrance into Gondolin.
b. He refused Ulmo's adive in the end.

2. What happened to the eagles? They kept watch on Gondolin, but failed to spot Morgoth's army approaching? C'est bizarre!

3. Is the use of Mechanical Monsters at odds with later versions of the story?

4. Doesn't it makes you sad the lack of details in the narrative in the Published Silmarillion?

5. If you read carefully my previous posts, there are some things that should be asked but I want to give the opportunity for people to seek them out first.

6. Isn't it odd that Maeglin wanted to "posses" her cousin?
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:45 PM   #6
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Ah, the Fall of Gondolin ... Beautiful writing, esp. in HoME2 ... *falls into a reverie*
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Old 04-21-2004, 02:57 PM   #7
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Re: Chapter 23: Of the Fall of Gondolin

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl
Hey Rusco! Lovely Sindarin!

I will respond later, I'm too busy at the moment ...
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Old 04-21-2004, 04:50 PM   #8
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Good work as usual, Maedhros!

I think this is the time for me to read BOLT: The Fall of Gondolin. You all say it is fantastical.
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Old 04-21-2004, 10:05 PM   #9
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I did a lot of research about this because of my taking Of Maeglin as a chapter assignment. So on this I have actually read out of HoME, mostly BoLT 2, I think (some were so similar that I kind of decided it wasn't worth my time to basically reread the story for the purposes of my chapter intro ). But it was a while back, so I don't have a crystal clear memory of what was in it, aside from the fact that a lot of detail was cut out. I don't mind that it was cut, because of length. On the other hand, I think reading the "originals" gives a clearer picture of what was happening, and pulls the reader in a little deeper because of that. It's almost as if, despite being longer, it is easier to read because you get more.

IMO, this is one of the most cohesive, detailed, and complete stories in The Silm, along with Beren and Luthien and a couple of others. Of course, several other threads are wound through here, and that's part of what made the end chapters of The Silm easier to read than some of the earlier ones. You can see how everything fits together, and to some extent where it's leading. You have the Gondolin story connecting to the Voyage of Earendil in this narrative. This is really where Tolkien's storytelling abilities are brought forth. There is a lot of emotion, you get to form a "relationship" with the main character, there is action, and a "real" bad guy (Maeglin), along with the "unearthly" Morgoth.

The mechanical monsters were fascinating to me. I remember that I wondered, like you did, about its being at odds. I can't really say right now, with the info that's in my brain at the moment. I'd have to go back and look.

I remember we discussed Maeglin's desire for Idril during my chapter. I think it makes sense in a seedy kind of way. I think the main reason was that by marrying her, he could have a firmer claim on the kingdom (although some people disputed this); also, she was beautiful. Then there's the possibility of it being part of his flawed personality -- desiring something unattainable for the sake of "possessing" it, wanting the forbidden because it is forbidden, as a kind of defeat of the "rules." That's the best way I can put it.
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Old 04-22-2004, 02:13 PM   #10
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Originally posted by azalea
I remember we discussed Maeglin's desire for Idril during my chapter. I think it makes sense in a seedy kind of way. I think the main reason was that by marrying her, he could have a firmer claim on the kingdom (although some people disputed this); also, she was beautiful. Then there's the possibility of it being part of his flawed personality -- desiring something unattainable for the sake of "possessing" it, wanting the forbidden because it is forbidden, as a kind of defeat of the "rules." That's the best way I can put it.
Well I think that Maeglin truly loved Idril in the beginning, because of her beauty and her nobility, and not primarily because she was the daughter of the king. He did not need to marry Idril to be in position with Turgon. When Turgon went forth to the Nirnaeth, Maeglin was appointed to rule Gondolin in the king's absence, but he refused, desiring rather to go to war. But Maeglin's love was a forbidden love, and as time passed this love "turned to darkness in his heart". I think it was only after the arrival of Tuor that Idril became important to him as the heir of Turgon. It must have been devastating for him to learn that Idril loved that Man.
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Originally posted by Fat middle
I think this is the time for me to read BOLT: The Fall of Gondolin. You all say it is fantastical.
Yes, YES, YES!
The story is full of wonderful details, about the city, about society, about the persons, about the battle. Go read!
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Originally posted by Maedhros
Doesn't it makes you sad the lack of details in the narrative in the Published Silmarillion?
Well not really, since I do have access to the FoG. The full story of the FoG would not have fitted into the format of the published Sil. Those who are interested will read the FoG in BoLT 2, as we do.
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In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of Eldalië, for in great love Idril bore to Tuor a son and she named him Ardamírë, but his father named him Eärendil and by this name he was know ever after.
I have a thing with Elvish names, and so just have to put in here that Eärendil is quenya for "sea-lover", and Ardamíre is "Jewel of the world". Both profetic names.
Eärendil Ardamíre. Isn't that beautiful?
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Old 04-27-2004, 01:13 PM   #11
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Isn't it incredible that Maeglin, when he was captured by the Orcs and led to Angband, could disappear for so long time, without anyone noticing? He must have gone forth all alone, or else his companions would have reported the incident, or been missed if they were captured too, or killed. And he must have done so frequently, so that his people were used to his absence for longer periods.
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:43 PM   #12
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It is interesting the case of Maeglin. The good thing for him is that he was not a popular elves among the Gondolindrim (at least in the Book of Lost Tales II version). It would be interesting as to how much time did Maeglin spent while captured, being transported to Angband and then returning to Gondolin. The Tale of Years mentions that it took place in 509 FA.

On a side note, I wonder if those exiles of Gondolin, after the failure of those sailors that Turgon sent to Valinórë would think this:
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, like the lament of Galadriel in Lórien.
Sī` mán i yúlma nín ènquántuvà?
Who now shall refill the cup for me?

I wonder if Galadriel needed a little sip of limpë?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:40 PM   #13
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Originally posted by Maedhros
It is interesting the case of Maeglin. The good thing for him is that he was not a popular elves among the Gondolindrim (at least in the Book of Lost Tales II version).
Arrrh. Then, when did he become the great Elf that CRT described in the published Sil: "praised by all, and high in the favour of Turgon", "wise in counsel", "wary, and yet hardy and valiant at need", fell and fearless in battle"?
Quote:
It would be interesting as to how much time did Maeglin spent while captured, being transported to Angband and then returning to Gondolin. The Tale of Years mentions that it took place in 509 FA.
So, do we know how far it was from Gondolin to Angband?

I also find it unlikely that Maeglin could go beyond the hills without Turgon's permission, and return from Angband unnoticed. Weren't the ways in and out of the vale watched?
Quote:
On a side note, I wonder if those exiles of Gondolin, after the failure of those sailors that Turgon sent to Valinórë would think this:
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?, like the lament of Galadriel in Lórien.
I'm sure they did think along these lines. As would the refugees from the other Elven kingdoms too.
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Sī` mán i yúlma nín ènquántuvà?
Who now shall refill the cup for me?

I wonder if Galadriel needed a little sip of limpë?
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Old 05-06-2004, 09:47 AM   #14
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Unfinished tales, Of Tuor:
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Rían, wife of Huor, dwelt with the people of the House of Hador; but when rumour came to Dor-lómin of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and yet she could hear no news of her lord, she became distraught and wandered forth into the wild alone. There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.

And Rían said to the Elves: "Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord."

Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: "Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle."

Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, and she passed through the land of Mithrim and came at last to the Haudhen-Ndengin in the waste of Anfauglith, and there she laid her down and died.
I don't understand how Rían could do this, to wilfully die just after she had given birth to her child, Tuor. I can understand that she was devastated by the news of the death of Huor, her husband, and I can see that Tuor was as safe as he could be with the Grey-Elves. But would she not want to care for him and see him grow up? Was his existence not reason enough for her to live on?
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:08 PM   #15
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From the Published Silmarillion: Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
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Then Finwë was grieved, for the Noldor were in me youth of their days, and he desired to bring forth many children into the Miss of Aman; and he said: 'Surely there is healing in Aman? Here all weariness can find rest.' But when Míriel languished still, Finwë sought the counsel of Manwë, and Manwë delivered her to the care of Irmo in Lórien. At their parting (for a little while as he thought) Finwë was sad, for it seemed an unhappy chance that the mother should depart and miss the beginning at least of the childhood days of her son.
‘It is indeed unhappy,’ said Míriel, 'and I would weep, if I were not so weary. But hold me blameless in this, and in all that may come after.’
She went then to the gardens of Lórien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos.
It is very similar to what happened to Míriel Þerinde.

To Artanis:
Ai! láurië lántar lássi sū΄rinèn
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:27 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Maedhros
It is very similar to what happened to Míriel Þerinde.
It is, and both incidents were very sad. But still, I think these two women's reason for not wanting to live anymore was different. Míriel was drained, tired, she could not endure the labour of living. Rían I think, died of grief. But grief can be overwon over time.
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To Artanis:
Ai! láurië lántar lássi sū΄rinèn

yē'ni ūnōtimè ve rā'mar áldaròn!
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Last edited by Artanis : 05-07-2004 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 05-20-2004, 06:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
4. Doesn't it makes you sad the lack of details in the narrative in the Published Silmarillion?
It does makes me a little sad. Although I have access to the other tales through HoME, I can't help but think what a splendid, glorious tale Tolkien could have written if he only had had the time. The detailed versions of 'The Fall of Gondolin' in HoME shows this tale held a particular warm spot in Tolkien's heart, just like the tale of Lúthien and Beren. I loved the description of the several Houses of Gondolin and the details Tolkien poured in the fall of the great city are second to none.
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Old 12-15-2004, 03:45 PM   #18
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it is a shame he never wrote more on the subject of gondolin, and subsequently nargothrond...
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