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Old 05-08-2004, 12:34 PM   #1
Elvet
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Chapter 24: Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath

This is the ending chapter of the Silmarillion. It contains the last events of the First Age, and introduces 2 characters who form the foundations of the stories in the Lord of the Rings - Elrond
and Elros. It has the last account of the Valar in Middle-earth and the conclusion of the quest for the Silmarils.

THE SUMMARY
After Tuor and Idril leave Middle-earth, their son Earendil grows up to become the lord of the people that lived at the mouth of the Sirion River (mostly the refugees from Gondolin and Doriath). Earendil marries Elwing and they have twin boys, Elrond and Elros. Earendil befriends Cirdan, and with his help builds his ship called Vingilot. He has 2 main purposes in life. The first is to seek out his parents, the second is to reconcile the rift between the Valar and the men and elves of Middle-earth. Both goals result in him spending much time sailing the seas.
Elwing does not accompany him, but stays at home with their people. Word gets out to Maedhros that the Silmaril is there, and a battle ensues between the last sons of Feanor and the exiles.This is the last slaying of Elf by Elf. Amrod and Amras die and Maedhros and Maglor take Elrond and Elros captive, but do not harm them. The surviving exiles join with Gil-galad
and go to Balar. Elwing keeps the Silmaril and throws herself into the sea.
Earendil has a premonition of something bad happening and sets sail for home. One night he sees a great white bird bearing the Silmaril. It lands on the boat and turns into Elwing, for Ulmo had bore her out of the sea and gave her the likeness of the bird so she could fly to her lover. They returned to Middle-earth and dispaired the ruinof the havens and the loss of their sons. Earendil turns back and, with Elwing, sets sail for Valinor.
By the grace of the Silmaril, he is allowed to set foot in Valinor. He is given a chance to plead his case and wins pardon for the Noldor and assistance for the Men and Elves of Middle-
earth. After he leaves, Mandros questions his fate, basically because the Valar had let a mortal man and a descendant of the Noldor come to the undying lands (something that was forbidden).
Manwe gives his judgement that Earendil and Elwing may never set foot on Middle-earth. As well, they and their sons must choose either the fate of mortal Man or immortal Elves. Both
Earendil and Elwing chose to be counted among the Elves.
Vingilot was hallowed and filled with a ‘wavering flame’ and brought to sail at the edge of the voids. Earendil was at the helm, with the Silmaril on his brow. Elwing stayed on land in a
white tower made for her. She became like one of the sea birds,and was able to fly to meet her husband on his voyages. The movement of Vingilot was seen by the people of Middle-earth as a new star, and they called it Gil-estel (the Star of High Hope).
The Valar now went to battle along with the Vanyar and the faithful Noldor under Finarfin’s leadership. Few of the Teleri joined, remembering the kinslaying at Swanhaven.
This was the Great Battle, aka the War of Wrath. They fought against Morgoth and his armies (which included many men not of the 3 houses ). Most of the Balrogs were vanquished, as well
as the dragons. Ancalagon, the mightiest dragon was killed by Earendil who arrived on Vingilot accompanied by a host of birds including the eagles. Morgoth was defeated, and Eonwe took the
remaining 2 Silmarils from his crown. The effect of the battle on Middle-earth was tremendous and the land was reshaped. Most of Beleriand and the valley of the Sirion were now under water.
Eonwe then called for a mass exodus of the Beleriand Elves to Valinor. . Maedhros and Maglor still bound to their oath, ask for the Silmarils to be returned to them. Eonwe says that they have given up their right to them because of all the evil deeds that they had done. They are to return to Valinor and face the judgement of the Valar. Maglor waivers, but eventually gives in to his brother. They steal the Silmarils and are let go by Eonwe, who will not slay any of the sons of Feanor. They each take one jewel, which burns them unbearably. Maedhros casts himself into a firey chasm and Maglor throws his Simaril into the sea. Maglor remains forever wandering the shoreline. The 3 Silmarils now have their final resting places - in the sky, in the earth and in the sea.
 The Valar returned to Valinor, and most of the Elves of Beleriand settled in Tol Eressea. They were pardoned by the Valar and forgiven by the Teleri. The Elves of note that remained in Middle-earth were Cirdan, Celebor, Galadriel, Gil-galad. The half-elven also stayed there, though Elrond chose to be with the Elves and Elros chose to be among men. Morgoth is banished
beyond the ‘Walls of the World’.

OTHER REFERENCES:
‘The Tale of Earendel’ from the Book of Lost Tales vol.2

As I consider myself a novice in the matter of the Silmarillion, I welcome any additional references that I missed.

PICTURES
Earendil in Vingilot with Elwing rising from the seas
http://hemsidor.torget.se/users/f/Fi...d/earendil.jpg

Earendil the Mariner
http://www.lordotrings.com/nasmith/nasmith37.asp

Tolkien’s painting of Vingilot approaching Valinor
http://lorien.elusivedreams.net/images/JRRT/valinor.jpg
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Old 05-08-2004, 12:41 PM   #2
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DISCUSSION
This is my favorite chapter of the book. It all comes together in 6 pages. It is also a poignant tale of the last time the Valar deal with Morgoth in full force. There are some important themes that
are ‘born’ in this chapter.

- The choice given to Earendil’s heirs to belong to the Elven or Mortal people.

Quote:
“But when all was spoken, Manwe gave judgement, and he said:’In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall
upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree
concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be
judged.”

I still am not clear on why Elrond’s heirs continue to have a choice, but Elros’ don’t.


- The vanquishing of Morgoth, yet the inability to eradicate the evil that he perpetuated.

Quote:
“Yet the lies that Melkor , the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.”

Despite all the Valar’s power, they are unable to control this potential evil. So now their role in the future of Middle-earth is more to cultivate the good in Men and Elves, and help guide the
Elves and Men in a positive sense. I think this really exemplifies that Elves and Men are truly autonomous, and divorces them from a ‘higher being’ that will be there to fix their mistakes.


I have a niggling question that maybe someone can answer for me.
- In the story it says that “.... Then Earendil, first of living Men, landed on the immortal shores....” But at the end of the previous Chapter there is “.........But in after days it was sung that
Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men”. Where did Tuor end up if not in
Valinor?
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Old 05-08-2004, 12:44 PM   #3
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THE POEMS:
Another thing I loved about this chapter is it’s connection to the poem that Bilbo recites in the Many Meetings chapter of the Fellowship of the Ring. As with many of the stories of the
Silmarillion, some tales are given poetic treatment that lends a sense of history and depth to the Lord of the Rings. In my readings about the evolution of the poem - The Song of Earendil - I found it actually originated as a verse called Errantry that Tolkien published in 1933 (It can be found in the Tolkien Reader).

Errantry


There was a merry passenger,
a messenger, a mariner
he built a guilded gondola
to wander in, and had in her
a load of yellow oranges
and porridge for his provender;
he perfumed her with marjoram
and cardamon and lavender

He called the winds of argosies
with cargoes in to carry him
across the rivers seventeen
that lay between to tarry him.
He landed all in loneliness
where stonily the pebbles on
the running river Derrilyn
goes merrily forever on.
He journeyed then through meadow-lands
to Shadow-land that dreary lay,
and under hill and over hill
went roving still a weary way.

He sat and sang a melody,
his errantry a-tarrying;
he begged a pretty butterfly
that fluttered by to marry him.
She scorned him and she scoffed at him,
she laughed at him unpitying;
so long he studied wizardry
and sigaldry and smithying.

He wove a tissue airy-thin
to snare her in; to follow her
he made him beetle-leather wing
and feather wing of swallow hair.
He caught her in bewilderment
with filament of spider-thread;
he made her soft pavilions
of lilies, and a bridal bed
of flowers and of thistle-down
to nestle down and rest her in;
and silky webs of filmy white
and silver light he dressed her in.

He threaded gems in necklaces,
but recklessly she squandered them
and fell to bitter quarrelling;
then sorrowing he wandered on,
and there he left her withering,
as shivering he fled away;
with windy weather following
on swallow-wing he sped away.

He passed the archipelagoes
where yellow grows the marigold
where countless silver fountains are,
and mountains are of fairy-gold.
He took to war and foraying,
a-harrying beyond the sea,
and roaming over Belmarie
and Thellamie and Fantasie.

He made a shield and morion
of coral and of ivory,
a sword he made of emerald,
and terrible his rivalry
with elven-Knights of Aerie
and Faerie, with paladins
that golden-haired and shining-eyed
came riding by and challenged him.

Of crystal was his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony;
with silver tipped at plenilune
his spear was hewn of ebony.
His javelins were of malachite
and stalactite - he brandished them,
and went and fought the dragon-flies
of Paradise, and vanquished them.

He battled with the Dumbledors
the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees,
and won the Golden Honeycomb;
and running home on sunny seas
in a ship of leaves and gossamer
with blossom for a canopy,
he sat and sang, and furbished up
and burnished up his panoply.

He tarried for a little while
in little isles that lonely lay,
and found there nought but blowing grass;
and so at last the only way
he took, and turned, and coming home
with honeycomb, to memory
his message came, and errand too!
In derring-do and glamoury
he had forgot them, journeying
and tournying, a wanderer.
So now he must depart again
and start again his gondola,
for ever still a messenger,
a passenger, a tarrier,
a-roving as a feather does,
a weather-driven mariner
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Old 05-08-2004, 12:46 PM   #4
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Song of Earendil

Eäärendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvernien;
he built a boat of timber felled
in Nimbrethil to journey in;
her sails he wove of silver fair,
of silver were her lanterns made,
her prow was fashioned like a swan,
and light upon her banners laid.

In panoply of ancient kings,
in chained rings he armoured him;
his shining shield was scored with runes
to ward all wounds and harm from him;
his bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows shorn of ebony,
of silver was his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony;
his sword of steel was valiant,
of adamant his helmet tall,
an eagle-plume upon his crest,
upon his breast an emerald.

Beneath the Moon and under star
he wandered far from northern strands,
bewildered on enchanted ways
beyond the days of mortal lands.
From gnashing of the Narrow Ice
where shadow lies on frozen hills,
from nether heats and burning waste
he turned in haste, and roving still
on starless waters far astray
at last he came to Night of Naught,
and passed, and never sight he saw
of shining shore nor light he sought.

The winds of wrath came driving him,
and blindly in the foam he fled
from west to east and errandless,
unheralded he homeward sped.

There flying Elwing came to him,
and flame was in the darkness lit;
more bright than light of diamond
the fire upon her carcanet.
The Silmaril she bound on him
and crowned him with the living light
and dauntless then with burning brow
he turned his prow; and in the night
from Otherworld beyond the Sea
there strong and free a storm arose,
a wind of power in Tarmenel;
by paths that seldom mortal goes
his boat it bore with biting breath
as might of death across the grey
and long-forsaken seas distressed:
from east to west he passed away.

Through Evernight he back was borne
on black and roaring waves that ran
o'er leagues unlit and foundered shores
that drowned before the Days began,
until he heard on strands of pearl
where ends the world the music long,
where ever-foaming billows roll
the yellow gold and jewels wan.

He saw the Mountain silent rise
where twilight lies upon the knees
of Valinor, and Eldamar
beheld afar beyond the seas.
A wanderer escaped from night
to haven white he came at last,
to Elvenhome the green and fair
where keen the air, where pale as glass
beneath the Hill of Ilmarin
a-glimmer in valley sheer
the lamplit towers of Tirion
are mirrored on the Shadowmere.

He tarried there from errantry,
and melodies they taught to him,
and sages old him marvels told,
and harps of gold they brought to him.
They clothed him then in elven-white,
and seven lights before him sent,
as through the Calacirian
to hidden land forlorn he went.
He came unto the timeless halls
where shining fall the countless years,
and endless reigns the Elder King
in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
and words unheard were spoken then
of folk of Men and Elven-kin.
Beyond the world were visions showed
forbid to those that dwell therein.

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
to gleam thereon by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom,
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.

From Evereven's lofty hills
where softly silver fountains fall
his wings him bore, a wandering light,
beyond the mighty Mountain Wall.
From World's End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star
on high above the mists he came,
a distant flame before the Sun,
a wonder ere the waking dawn
where grey the Norland waters run.

And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
But on him mighty doom was laid,
till Moon should fade, an orbééd star
to pass, and tarry never more
on Hither Shores where mortals are;
for ever still a herald on
an errand that should never rest
to bear his shining lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:45 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvet
I still am not clear on why Elrond’s heirs continue to have a choice, but Elros’ don’t.
I have suspect that the mortal human nature (with the gift to men that cannot be denied) is the dominant one in the mixed spirit of the halfevlen, and the one that would decide the final fate of their spirit without specila intervention. The Valar were given special authority judgement over the mised spirits and to purify them one way or the other. I believe, based on the choice/no choice that if one a halfeven is made wholy mortal before he has children, then there is no elvish component in the children to judge. But for some reason the Mortal component gift of man can not be wholy exorcised by making one of them elvish, or is the gift to man is so important that it was judged that it must be carried down to a susequnt generation. I believe that the "it is said" story of Tour being made evish is mythologicla and false within its context

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Old 05-11-2004, 06:56 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvet
I still am not clear on why Elrond’s heirs continue to have a choice, but Elros’ don’t.
I prefer to believe that it is like Lefty suggested: The gift to Men from Eru is so important and valuable that it should not be taken away from subsequent generations. But I also think it could be a special grace for Elrond's children, maybe sprung out of foreknowledge about the marriage between Arwen and Aragorn.

Eärendil is the hero in this chapter. But I think we should notice how important Elwing is too. She is the one who saves the Silmaril and brings it to Valinor. It is also for her sake, because she is of their own kindred, that the Telerin Elves of Alqualonde sends mariners enough to the ships so that the Vanyar and the Noldor, the hosts of Eönwë, are able to set sail towards Middle Earth.

There is one thing that bothers me: Why did not any of the Elves of Middle Earth take part in the War of Wrath? One should think they had certain things to seek revenge for. Why not, when the remainders of the Edain marched with the host of Valinor?
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Old 05-11-2004, 01:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
There is one thing that bothers me: Why did not any of the Elves of Middle Earth take part in the War of Wrath? One should think they had certain things to seek revenge for. Why not, when the remainders of the Edain marched with the host of Valinor?
Elves outside of Beleriand were at a much lower level of technology, culture, and political organization (remember than prior to exposure to the great jpurney elves seem to have little more than clan leadership, or perhaps tribal, Kingship was develope out the great journey and its exposure to the Valar).. There could not filed cohesive armies and project power at a distance. They also had some forces and allies of Morgoth to deal with at home. Recall than men jouneyed west to Beleriand to escape Morgoth's power. His allies and underling still controlled much of ME outside of beleriand, both during his exile and durring the Wat of the jewels. The elves left in Beleriand had little left to figth with, few warriors, no production capacity, and limited leftover material, as well as have being beaten into impotence for decades.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Elves outside of Beleriand were at a much lower level of technology, culture, and political organization (remember than prior to exposure to the great jpurney elves seem to have little more than clan leadership, or perhaps tribal, Kingship was develope out the great journey and its exposure to the Valar).. There could not filed cohesive armies and project power at a distance. They also had some forces and allies of Morgoth to deal with at home. Recall than men jouneyed west to Beleriand to escape Morgoth's power. His allies and underling still controlled much of ME outside of beleriand, both during his exile and durring the Wat of the jewels. The elves left in Beleriand had little left to figth with, few warriors, no production capacity, and limited leftover material, as well as have being beaten into impotence for decades.
Lefty, I agree with what you say about the Elves who had lived east of Beleriand. But what you say about the Sindar and the exiled Noldor was also valid for the Edain, yet the Edain went to the war.
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Old 05-12-2004, 03:39 PM   #9
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Recmember that mortals are breeding a new generation every 35 to 40 years, with new young guys eager for action and justice, as opposed to the eoves with a oonger generation cycle, and that significantly interupted by war and displacement for many would be parents, and thus they have grown little since their defeats, have full and vivid memory of the horror of the wars, and most survivors have enjoyed as much of war as they can stand.
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Old 05-15-2004, 10:33 AM   #10
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It is very interesting to note this:
From The Parentage of Gil-Galad
Quote:
Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains .. ..... His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.
This would in principle be in contrast to the fact that Eärendil was the lord of the people of the Mouths of Sirion, but it can be reconciled with the fact that the word lord does not mean king.
The more difficult part of that was that Gil-Galad escaped the Fall of Nargothrond. Does that means that Gil-Galad was in Nargothrond when Túrin was there?

If you notice the Quenta Silmarillion, you will notice that there is a little difference in the parragraph order in the Published Silmarillion. IMO, I think that CT'S movement does indeed makes for a better read.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 05-17-2004, 05:12 AM   #11
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I just want to bring to surface Elvet's question,

Elvet posted,

Quote:
I have a niggling question that maybe someone can answer for me.
- In the story it says that “.... Then Earendil, first of living Men, landed on the immortal shores....” But at the end of the previous Chapter there is “.........But in after days it was sung that
Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men”. Where did Tuor end up if not in
Valinor?
Any comment on this?
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Old 05-20-2004, 06:10 AM   #12
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My comment:

Tuor and Idril left together, Eärendil later left to search for them. If I'm not mistaken somewhere in the HoME series Tolkien tells about 'the sleeper in the Tower of Pearl' with a small note whether the sleeper was Idril or not.

Tuor and Idril didn't have the silmaril to guide them to Valinor, the way would have been barred for them until Eärendil opened it. Whether they reached Valinor in the end isn't said anywhere, I think. In any case they couldn't have reached it before Eärendil, making their son the first one of mortal blood to step unto the shores of Valinor. Perhaps Tuor and Idril landed on the Enchanted Isles and could only leave them when the Valar opened their barrieres to let the Eldar come.
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Old 05-27-2004, 05:24 PM   #13
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Theoden

Just curious... will this thread be the end of the Silmarillion Discussion Project?

I've read over many of the posts in it since registering, but am not fluent enough with the contents of the work to make TOO many intelligent observations.

Uh... you're not gonna do "Akallabeth" and all the rest, are you?
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Old 05-28-2004, 02:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Valandil
Uh... you're not gonna do "Akallabeth" and all the rest, are you?
Yes, we are. The two remaining chapters are assigned to Wayfarer. I hope he's still around.
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Old 05-28-2004, 10:39 AM   #15
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Originally posted by Artanis
Yes, we are. The two remaining chapters are assigned to Wayfarer. I hope he's still around.
Yay!

(and sorry... I should have just checked the 'Chapter Assignments' thread... it's all right there )
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Old 05-28-2004, 12:24 PM   #16
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It is interesting to note that CT leaves out of the Published Silmarillion the Second Prophecy of Mandos, it was a shame really but it seems to have been discarded by JRRT.
From the Lost Road and Other Writtings: Quenta Silmarillion
Quote:
§31 Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Eärendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
§32 Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 05-28-2004, 12:31 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Maedhros
It is interesting to note that CT leaves out of the Published Silmarillion the Second Prophecy of Mandos, it was a shame really but it seems to have been discarded by JRRT.
From the Lost Road and Other Writtings: Quenta Silmarillion
Beautiful. And almost has a 'biblical' feel to it. Wraps up loose ends nicely.
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Old 05-28-2004, 01:02 PM   #18
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From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
Quote:
The Valaquenta texts end thus, and speak of the Marring of Arda, the underlying concern of many of the writings given subsequently in this book:
Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255).
It seems that CT was correct in his statement.
Quote:
Wraps up loose ends nicely.
The thing is that it how can Túrin return from the Halls of Mandos, aren't men supposed to wander outside Arda and go to the Halls only for a brief period of time?
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 05-28-2004, 01:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
The thing is that it how can Túrin return from the Halls of Mandos, aren't men supposed to wander outside Arda and go to the Halls only for a brief period of time?
I would guess an exception allowed, for a time, by Iluvatar, because of the great attention paid Hurin's family by Morgoth - and the great harm done to them by all his 'notice'.
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Old 05-28-2004, 01:37 PM   #20
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But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.
Hm - what does "sons of the Valar" mean? Was this written before JRRT rejected the idea of the Valar having children?
Quote:
The thing is that it how can Túrin return from the Halls of Mandos, aren't men supposed to wander outside Arda and go to the Halls only for a brief period of time?
There may be exceptions. I suppose Mandos could hold him back until the end, or request him to stay. I'm sure Túrin would be willing to take part in a battle with Morgoth, if he got the chance.
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