Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age?

[Gordis]

There are some questions that, I believe, have never been discussed:
When and how Sauron collected the Nine Rings?
Were the nazgul free from Sauron for a time?
Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer?

The history of the Nine rings is mysterious.
What do we know?
1. In the Second Age Sauron gave the Nine Rings to mortal men and they became the ringwraiths. At this time Sauron fully controlled the nazgul, as they wore the Nine rings and Sauron wielded the Ruling Ring. This is, I believe, the uncontested canon.
2. At the end of the TA (at the time of LOTR) Sauron controlled the nazgul through the Nine rings which he HIMSELF HELD. (See quotes I have posted in the tread "Could he be overthrown..." or, better still, read the excellent FAQ tread suggested by Jon S. http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvWhy )

But if we accept 1 and 2, then follows an important logical corollary: When Sauron lost the Ruling Ring, he lost his control over the Nazgul and had no control over them before he could gather the Nine rings back to himself.

Let us look at the facts:
Sauron returned from the spirit world around 1040 of the Third Age and was slowly taking shape again in Dol Guldur. At first his presence was perceived only as a dark shadow covering the southern Mirkwood. Later, he was known as the Nacromancer, who kept so low and quiet, that nobody even suspected his true identity. It was in 2850 only that Gandalf went to Dol Guldur and reported "It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the rings to his hand ..." [Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age]
Meanwhile, the Witch-King first appeared in the West in 1300. He established a realm of his own and grew very strong. He ruled Angmar for about 700 years (1300-1975). At the beginning, and, probably, till the very end, no one realized that he was indeed the Lord of the Nazgul. During that same time frame, the Wize knew that a "necromancer" inhabited Dol Guldur. But they did not connect the king at Carn Dum with the evil in Mirkwood, which is intriguing. Perhaps there was no contact. No other nazgul took part in the battle of Fornost. Neither did the Witch King get any reinforcements from the East for his desperate last battle. The Witch King took the fall of Angmar personally-not as a general of Sauron, but as the defeated ruler of his own kingdom. It looks like Angmar was not a tribute to Sauron, but an independent act of the WK.
Then the story continues. After the battle of Fornost, the WK went not to Dol Guldur, but to Mordor, where he gathered other nazgul. They were already seen in Gorgoroth sometime after the Great Plague of 1636. They took Cirith Ungol and Minas Ithil and settled down in Minas Morgul.
In 2063 Gandalf visits Dol Guldur and causes Sauron's flight. And here it becomes interesting. Sauron does not go to Minas Morgul! Perhaps he knew he would get no welcome there. Instead, he flies East, hides there for 400 years and returns back to Dol Guldur.
Sauron stays in Dol Guldur till 2941, when the forces of White Counsil attack him and he flies to Mordor this time. But he comes there in secret and does not declare himself for 10 years - till 2951. It looks like it is at this time that Sauron has gathered all the Nine rings, because straightaway his power grew - Orodruin erupted again etc. and he started ordering the nazgul around. For example in 2951 he sent 3 of them to re-occupy Dol Guldur.

Now another question: HOW did Sauron collect the Nine rings to himself?
There could be two possible scenarios:
1. Sauron took the Nine rings from the nazgul in the Second age. It was easy to do, as the nazgul were then fully bent to his will. But why would he do that? He had the One and the system worked. And of course, he had to consider that taking the rings from the nazgul weakened them greatly.
However, at the end of the SA there were two moments when Sauron could wish to do so. The first was before Sauron went to surrender to Ar-Pharazon. If he left the Ruling Ring in a strongbox in Barad Dur, he could wish to put the Nine Rings there as well, just to be sure that the nazgul would be loyal in his absence. The second moment was during the siege of Barad Dur. If Sauron believed his case lost, he might have considered the possibility of losing the One, and decided to take and hide the Nine. If that is the case, the Nine Rings must have been kept under strong spells within those famous foundations of Barad-Dur, made with the Power of the One, that the victors of the Last Alliance were unable to break.
In the Third Age Sauron could not get the rings, as Mordor was closely guarded by Gondor troops till the great Plague of 1636. Perhaps he could have sneaked into Mordor and got the rings during the Watchful Peace, but it seems unlikely. Why hadn't he then declared himself openly at that time but returned instead to Mirkwood? Probably the nazgul guarded Barad Dur foundations too closely. Perhaps he had to accumulate more magic power to undo his own spells on the strongbox in Barad Dur, so he continued collecting the dwarven rings. It seems that only in TA 2942 Sauron sneaked into Mordor, found his hoard in the Barad-Dur foundations and, having gathered enough magic power from the 3 dwarven rings, was able to open it and get the rings.

2. The alternative scenario is that the Nazgul still kept their rings during the War of the Last Alliance.
On the slopes of Orodruin, Sauron was "killed". He became a bodiless spirit. What happened to the Nazgul? Perhaps they just turned invisible and fled, or they went away under cover of darkness as the Witch king did at the battle of Fornost. Certainly, there is no mention of them being killed, they merely "vanished into the shadows". They could have easily kept their rings and gone East, where they lived happily for more than a millennium unknown to the Wize of the West.
In the Third Age, Sauron, in the absence of the One, started gathering the other rings to himself. We know only that the "LAST of the seven" was taken by force from Train in 2845. But what about the Nazgul rings? It is highly unlikely that Sauron were able to confront the Witch King during his reign in Angmar. Perhaps, however, he was able to catch some of the lesser nazgul passing by Mirkwood and get their rings by force. If so, he set them free afterwards, as they were now under his control. From 2002 till 2942 all the nazgul remained together in Minas Morgul, far away from Sauron. He returned to Mordor in 2942 and not alone, but with all his forces of orcs from Dol Guldur. At this time Sauron had 3 dwarven rings and grew in power considerably. Even so, it is unlikely that the Nazgul surrendered their rings willingly. There must have been a confrontation. I do not think that Sauron and the Witch-King ran through Minas Morgul swinging swords at each other, more likely it was a "magic" battle of power and wills, and the Witch-King lost it. If Sauron has previously got control over some of the lesser nazgul, they obviously helped Sauron against their Captain.

So, in the first scenario the nazgul were ringless for all of the Third Age in the second they had rings. In both scenarios Sauron got the Nine Rings around 2942-2951, so the nazgul were free for most of the Third Age.

What do you think about it, dear Mooters?

[Olmer]

Interesting. I would say they had never been free, but they tried.
Considering that Nazgul had some intellect and therefore some feelings, they
probably felt dread of once upon mighty kings being an errands-boys for 5000 years without any hopes for freedom in the future. I think Sauron took the Rings from them, because the Nazgul tried to destroy them.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Interesting. I would say they had never been free, but they tried. Considering that Nazgul had some intellect and therefore some feelings, they probably felt dread of once upon mighty kings being an errands-boys for 5000 years without any hopes for freedom in the future. I think Sauron took the Rings from them, because the Nazgul tried to destroy them.

Hi, Olmer, I am so glad you read this.

I was mostly trying to emphasize that the evidence from the LOTR appendices shows that Sauron was NOT using nazgul as errand-boys (or in any other ways) from the beginning of the TA till his return to Barad Dur in 2951. If you can provide such evidence - I will be happy to see it.

Unlike you, I believe in a more canonic, straightforward ring-control: If you have the 9 rings or the One - then you can control the nazgul, if you have not - sorry, access is denied, try another time.

As for the Nazgul resenting being enslaved - to that I agree wholeheartedly. BTW I have read your tread on the hunt for the Ring - very convincing, IMHO. Perhaps I should try to reopen it, as I have some additional evidence. Consider also, that if the nazgul were entrapped (for the second time in their lives) only 70 years before LOTR (felt like yesterday to the 4500 years old wraiths), then during LOTR they must have hated Sauron's very guts .
Much-much more than Gollum hated Bilbo

I cannot imagine any ringbearer willingly destroying his "precious" ring. Nobody ever did it (Celebrimbor, Galadriel Etc. down to Frodo) I think the nazgul wanted freedom in ME more than to die and go beyond. With their Rings and the One lost they were free. When Sauron took their rings, they must have lost all hope ever to take the 9 back. So they then opted for the One Ring ring's destruction and helped it subtly and secretly.

[HistoryGuy]

IMO, after the Last Alliance of Men and Elves, when Sauron's ring was cut from his hand by Isildur (hence, he was turned into a spirit), and fled east from Mordor (possibily Rhun, or elsewhere?), I think the Nazgul had a chance to "flee" from him. Heck, you don't think they went to Angmar for nothing do you? I honestly think they were trying to form there own kingdom, but they didn't plan on it being destroyed so soon after they formed it. IF my knowledge also serves me well, when Gandalf confirms that Sauron returned to ME (specifically Dol Goldur) the Nine returned to Mordor, rebuilt his fortress, and than Sauron eventually came home. Just my thought.

I believe, while the Nazgul did attempt to form their own realm in the North, they were loyal servants to Sauron by that time, and answered his calling when he was at Dol Goldur.

[CrazySquirrel]

Wauu, Gordis! It is hard to stomach. But I admit i never thought on it at all.
Perhaps you are right and Sau lived not only ringless but nazgulless....

But Why did Wikkie destroy Arnor if he turned a good guy?

And another thing: How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal.

WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal?

And yet a thought. What do you think Wikkie looked like if made visible? I guess he was quite handsome. Wasn't he king of numenor? I read somewhere numenoreans were almost like elves in appearance.
And he must look young. Because the nazgul didn't age, just faded and turned invisible. So Wikkie must have looked better than Aragorn and Boromir. Not so hot as Legolas, though.
It is a shame how PJ has made Wikkie look at weathertop, like he sucked on a lemon for thousand years . Why?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

An interesting question indeed gordis. I don't think that the nine rings were with the Nazgul after the fall of Sauron at the end of the Second Age. Had they been the powers of the nine would not have diminished and so with the power of his ring the Witch King should have been a more domminant king of Angmar, would he not? Yet his kingdom of Angmar was destroyed by the men of Gondor and so I say it is impossible that any of the Nazgul had their rings untill Sauron had given them back.
I think this theory works well because of the fear the Nazgul would have in the inevitable return of Sauron. The Witch King, and no dount the other Nazgul, were attempting to build their own kingdoms and own armies in the event they should need to defend themselves and defeat Sauron. It is unkown what the other Nazgul did but I do not doubt that the rest went into the East and into the South and there had similar unsuccessful kingdoms.
However when the ringless Nazgul could not hold their own kingdoms they returned to their "Plan B" which was to hold a fort against the return of Sauron into Mordor so they took control of Minas Ithil and Cirith Ungol and no doubt had posts at the Morannon, to gaurd gainst the return of their oppressor.
Perhaps also they returned to the land of Mordor to attempt to recover the nine rings before the return of Sauron? Without Sauron contoling the one ring and the Nazgul with theirs they may have been able to defeat not only Sauron but the men of Gondor and all of the west? I don't know how credible this last part would be but it does make sense.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

hmm, a nice discussion,

in answer to crazysquirrel's question on appearing in public, i envisage
something along the lines of Anubis in stargate

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=gordis]
Was the Witch-King at Carn Dum a servant of the Necromancer?

For me no, not at that time.


My inclination is that by Dol Guldur (certainly when the one was effectively "active" i.e in the time of Bilbo, prior to the White council action) then Sauron was effectively (to whatever degree) in control: whether in absolute terms or just effectively (this is how i read JRRT writing it)

it would make more sense if he had the nine: but this asks the question since i perceive the WKOA had a ring at this point before his defeat in the North by the Southern Gondorians, how did Sauron then, between Angmar and the end of the third age, take it off him (if he indeed had the nine rather then the Nazgul wearing them?)

how much does he draw strength from the growing activity of the One (and how much is this a mutually supportive two-way process? i.e the one being increasingly aware of sauron's re-emergence?)


excellent post and intro

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal.
WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal?

Nice to have you here. CrazySquirrel. You have conjured such a disturbing picture in my mind: "Wikkie" in state robes applying makeup to his handsome invisible face and mascara to his long curved lashes...
Surely Tolkien has not intended this. No living man could have ... only a woman.

An AD in "The Middle Earth Weekly":
NEW BEAUTY PRODUCTS "SHADES OF LORIEN"
WILL TURN A NAZGUL INTO A HEALTHY LOOKING MAN
Address to: Lady Galadriel, Caras Galadon, Lorien
HUGE discounts for the first NINE customers

Sorry, no time for serious matters now, I have to run...

[Pytt]

Very interesting indeed. I've never thought of the possibility of the Nazgul being free, but what you say makes me think about it.

One thing I thought about reading this, what if Sauron sent The Witch King to Angmar, to fight the Arthedain. Sauron knew Eriador was Isildurs realm, what if we belive Sauron sent The Witch King to regain the Ring from Isildur? Yes, I know this theory is not very valid, Isildur died right after the battle, and The Witch King ceartainly heard. But he could have stayed his ground, in lack of something else to do. And if he had managed to bet the Men out of Eriador, kill them or capture them, he would indoubtly have got high in Sauron's eyes, when he would return.
I don't know, just something I thought of.

[ItalianLegolas]

I never thought if this before... good question Gordis... hmm.
I doubt that the Nazgul were ever free, though they probably did try seperately to escape the Rings hold over them... I think that maybe if they had all worked together they could have escaped...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

But Why did Wikkie destroy Arnor if he turned a good guy?

I have never said that. By the time of Angmar kingdom, the WK was perhaps as evil as Sauron himself. That is the main problem when you try to figure out whether he acted on Sauron's order or all by himself. The WK may have hated the Dunedain of Arnor. Weren't they descendants of Elendil and Isildur who brought Mordor down? Certainly the WK was a vengeful person. Remember how he hated Earnur.

Or there is another possibility: The WK came North and created a kingdom as any mortal king would, but then he was quite naturally drawn into the struggle for dominance of Arnor. There were already 3 kingdoms warring for it, so the fourth could hardly stay neutral. Angmar just became the strongest of the four. Do you think that any king of Cardolan and Rhudaur would have stopped before destroying Arthedain?

Originally Posted by HistoryGuy

I believe, while the Nazgul did attempt to form their own realm in the North, they were loyal servants to Sauron by that time...

-First of all, there was not a single nazgul save the WK in Angmar. I think he has forbidden the others to show themselves there, as a part of his policy of hiding his true identity. The appearance of 9 strange and scary guys would be too revealing.
IMHO the WK was not loyal to Sauron, he was neutral. He has not challenged the Necromancer either because he did not know of him (or who he was), or, alternatively, because he knew far too well and avoided direct confrontation as long as possible. Perhaps he was hiding his true identity not so much from Elves and Dunedin, as from the Necromancer?
IMHO the Witch-King planned to become the king of Arnor (or a king of a reunited kingdom of Arnor and Gondor) to be able to build a very strong army and then attack Dol Guldur.
Sauron, for his part, must have guessed the WK's identity and plans and didn't hinder him as long as he was no treat to Dol Guldur. The WK's war against Armor suited his plans well, but he must have been afraid of the WK becoming too strong militarily, so he has not sent help for the battle of Fornost and, likely, prevented other nazgul sending it. By 1975, Sauron controlled the road through Mirkwood and the road along the Anduin, as well as Rhovanion. As it is, the result of the war was truly satisfactory for Sauron: Arnor destroyed, Angmar destroyed and Gondor weakened. Sauron was the only true winner.

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

I doubt that the Nazgul were ever free, though they probably did try seperately to escape the Rings hold over them... I think that maybe if they had all worked together they could have escaped...

They were not trying to escape the ring's hold over them, it was simply impossible, they existed while the rings existed, bound to them forever.
They tried to escape Sauron's hold on them. IMHO the Witch-King wanted to be the Dark Lord himself.

Originally Posted by Pytt

One thing I thought about reading this, what if Sauron sent The Witch King to Angmar, to fight the Arthedain. Sauron knew Eriador was Isildurs realm, what if we belive Sauron sent The Witch King to regain the Ring from Isildur? Yes, I know this theory is not very valid, Isildur died right after the battle, and The Witch King ceartainly heard. But he could have stayed his ground, in lack of something else to do.

I think the Witch-King understood that it was pointless to try to find the Ring among Men. Any man would have turned into wraith long ago. I think he knew all about Isildur and believed the Ring lost in the river or held safely in one of the Elven strongholds. Now that I think about it, perhaps THAT was the reason why he has besieged Rivendell in 1409? If the WK had his ring at the time, obtaining the Ruling ring would have secured him forever.

[Manveru]

wow this is pretty interesting. I had always thought of the Ringwraiths as being totally bound to Sauron's will, never desiring their own freedom. When
Sauron was defeated the Ringwraiths had to just wait around untill he came back. So the Witch King decided to do something to help his master out once he came back. So he destroyed Arnor. Imagine if Arnor was still around during the War of the Ring? Sauron wouldnt have had a chance. Then they took Minas Ithil, making Gondor much weaker, just like Sauron was doing by convincing Easterlings that they should be invading Gondor. They were all basically working independantly of eachother to weaken the West in preparation for the great wars to come.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by gordis

Nice to have you here. CrazySquirrel. You have conjured such a disturbing picture in my mind: "Wikkie" in state robes applying makeup to his handsome invisible face and mascara to his long curved lashes...
Surely Tolkien has not intended this. No living man could have ... only a woman.

An AD in "The Middle Earth Weekly":
NEW BEAUTY PRODUCTS "SHADES OF LORIEN"
WILL TURN A NAZGUL INTO A HEALTHY LOOKING MAN
Address to: Lady Galadriel, Caras Galadon, Lorien
HUGE discounts for the first NINE customers

Oh, Gordis I absolutely love your AD!
And yes, you are right. No living man am I. You look upon a woman!

Actually you made me reread appendixes. I wanted to find something against your theory, but failed.
Instead I have found something in LOTR.
When 2 orcs are speaking in Shelob's Lair about Nazguls : "They are NOW his (sau's) favorites"
What do you make of it? What is "now"?

[CrazySquirrel]

And yes, has anyone an idea how an invisible nazgul can make himself look normal. Seriously I mean.
Is it possible if he has his ring? And if he hasn't?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Manveru

wow this is pretty interesting. I had always thought of the Ringwraiths as being totally bound to Sauron's will, never desiring their own freedom. When Sauron was defeated the Ringwraiths had to just wait around untill he came back.

Then WHY has Sauron taken their rings from them?

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

When 2 orcs are speaking in Shelob's Lair about Nazguls : "They are NOW his (sau's) favorites" What do you make of it? What is "now"?

Interesting. "Now" hardly refers to quite recently, IMHO. Recently there was the hunt for the Ring. After the search in the Anduin's vale Sauron was very angry at the nazgul, later, in the Shire, they have failed him again. So they have done nothing to deserve his favour recently. IMHO NOW refers to the period after Sauron's return to Barad-Dur. Before that, it seems they were not his favorites... I think it fits well in my theory.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

In UT it states that the Nazgûl had no will other than Sauron's. To me this imples that the Nazgûl were under Sauron's ultimate control before The Last Alliance, with or without their Rings. If this is not the case then the only other plausible solution to me is that Sauron took the Rings of the Nazgûl during the siege of Barad-Dûr, seeing that if he falls the Nazgûl are still bound and if not then he can just give them back.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

In UT it states that the Nazgûl had no will other than Sauron's. To me this imples that the Nazgûl were under Sauron's ultimate control before The Last Alliance, with or without their Rings.

The statement in UT refers specifically to July 3018 TA, the time when Sauron, after much headache, decided to send the nazgul for the ring, in preference to any of the mortals. And it says explicitly why: "At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held."

It does not imply at all that the situation was the same before the Last Alliance. Actually it was different: Then the nazgul were wearing the rings that had enslaved them and Sauron had the Master Ring that controlled the nine rings.
So the final result in both cases is the same, but the means are different.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

If this is not the case then the only other plausible solution to me is that Sauron took the Rings of the Nazgûl during the siege of Barad-Dûr, seeing that if he falls the Nazgûl are still bound and if not then he can just give them back.

Give them back? Well, if Sauron was so kind and trusting, why then didn't he give the nazgul their rings back when he returned to Mordor in 2951?

Actually, Sauron trusted no one, and probably rightly so. He kept his minions in fear and stimulated them by promises. Mouth of Sauron was kept by a promise of lordship in Isengard. The Nazgul were threatened if they were not too zealous "...conveying threats from their master that filled even the Morgul-Lord with dismay"(UT). Probably they were promised their rings back after Sauron gets the One. But there was no place for loyalty and devotion. "It is not the way of Mordor."

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But if Sauron held the One then the bearers of the Nine were under his will completley. Also as stated before the Rings probably enhanced the 'powers' of the Nazgûl so them not bearing their Rings would be pointless.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But if Sauron held the One then the bearers of the Nine were under his will completley..

Of course, it is canon. But Sauron has lost the One, hasn't he? The question I was trying to answer was: What has happened then?

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Also as stated before the Rings probably enhanced the 'powers' of the Nazgûl so them not bearing their Rings would be pointless..

Yes, without the rings the nazgul are presumably much weaker.

In the Second age there was no need for Sauron to take the nine rings back to himself (until, probably, the last battle)
In the Third age the ringless Sauron preferred the weaker, but totally enslaved, nazgul to the stronger ones, but with their free will intact. So he has taken the rings from them. Also he may have needed the rings (9 and 7 and 3, if he could get them) for his own ends, to enhance his own power.