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Old 04-23-2005, 10:51 AM   #1
Gordis
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Boromir I became a wraith?

I have a small question for you that I came by while reading the tread “Men of the Appendices”
Remember Boromir I son of Denethor I ?
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In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-king feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve year after his father.(2489).
So, Boromir I received a Morgul-wound and lived for 14 years? How was that possible? Frodo was expected to die within a few days after his wound! Did Boromir get medical (magical) help? And from whom? Aragorn and Glorfindel were both unable to heal Frodo, only Elrond was capable of it. But Erlond was hardly present in Minas-Tirith in 2475. So who has helped Boromir? And did he eventually die “normally” or did he become a wraith and joined Earnur’s company in Minas Morgul?
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Old 04-23-2005, 11:55 AM   #2
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Great observation! I suspect that he received elvish medicine and did not become a wraith but died very prematurely by the standards of his people. Recall that Frodo's wound per Gandalf was not wholly able to be healed in this world. And Frodo's dealing with the afte-reffects was not pleasant physically or psychologically or spiritually. And he had the unexpected Hobbit resistance to the wound! All IMHO, of course.

Had Boromir I become a wraith (or Tolkien intended us to understand that), I think there would have been descriptions of the abnormality of his physical illness and absence or disappearance rather than death.
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Old 04-23-2005, 12:56 PM   #3
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I agree with inked. If he had become a wraith then he would have been noted disappeared, not died. I suspect that by Morgul wound Tolkien did not mean the kind that Frodo had, but some other Morgul wound. Also the Nine were around at the end of SA, and at the end of TA there was still only Nine. Surely if he became a wraith he would have fought for Sauron with the Nine, mybe perhaps with the promise of one of the Nine rings if he performed great deeds and served Sauron well.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

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Old 04-23-2005, 02:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
I suspect that by Morgul wound Tolkien did not mean the kind that Frodo had, but some other Morgul wound.
Agreed! Morgul just means "sorcery" (IIRC) and this is a pretty vague word.
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Old 04-23-2005, 02:18 PM   #5
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Yes, agree with TD and Beren. I'm not very into this story, but I agree that Tolkien wouldn't have written 'died' if he became a ghost.
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Old 04-23-2005, 05:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beren3000
Morgul just means "sorcery" (IIRC) and this is a pretty vague word.
I have to disagree sorry. "Morgul wound" and "morgul blade" are terms meaning specifically the kind of weapons and wounds nazgul used to turn mortals into wraiths. It is not just a poisoned arrow or something else. Aragorn used “Morgul blade” as a term.

Interestingly, Aragorn knew pretty well about morgul wounds from the beginning. At the time of Weathertop attack he recognized the knife immediately. However, by that time the nazgul were a long-forgotten history. Gandalf said they were not seen in the world for a very long time. Why, Boromir II has not even recognised the Witch-King when he appeared at the battle of Osgiliath. (Strange, isn't it, in Gondor they must have known all along who the Lord of Morgul was). So where has Aragorn picked his knowledge about Morgul blades? From Gondor lore, I think, which he learned while he served there as Thorongil. And IMHO, it was the story of Boromir I that still circulated in Gondor. There must have been other similar stories with less lucky victims.

If Boromir has not become a wraith, then he must have had magical assistance. Whose assistance? Hardly Elrond's. I think of either Gandalf or Saruman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar Dunadan
Also the Nine were around at the end of SA, and at the end of TA there was still only Nine. Surely if he became a wraith he would have fought for Sauron with the Nine, mybe perhaps with the promise of one of the Nine rings if he performed great deeds and served Sauron well.
A person “taken” by a Morgul blade will never become a Ringwraith! The nazgul were “taken” by their rings and got a long life and a great power etc. In other words they were Lords of the Wraiths. Boromir (and Frodo) would have become just simple wraiths. Almost like the Nine, but much weaker and subject to their will. Every time a nazgul used his special brand blade, there was a new wraith in their service.
I think there were lots of wraiths in Minas Morgul.
Look at Minas Morgul descriptions: ” The tower isn't empty, is it? ' `O no, not empty! ' whispered Gollum. `It seems empty, but it isn't, O no! Very dreadful things live there. Orcs, yes always Orcs; but worse things, worse things live there too”. Faramir says almost the same: The nazgul “took Minas Ithil and dwelt there, and they filled it, and all the valley about, with decay: it seemed empty and was not so, for a shapeless fear lived within the ruined walls.“It is a place of sleepless malice, full of lidless eyes”. Even the valley was called “Imlad Morgul, the Valley of Living Death” (Faramir’s words). It was no place for the living beings, even the river was poisoned.

What was it that the Witch-King treatened to do to Eowyn? “ I will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye”. In other words it means: “I will stab you with a Morgul knife and you will become a wraith”. That is what the Morgul King usually did to those who hindered him. What do you think has become of Earnur, the last King of Gondor? Most likely he was not tortured to death, as it was believed in Gondor. The Witch King was too cruel to let an enemy escape to Mandos. IMHO Earnur has become a wraith and polished the Witch-King’s boots and mended his cloaks ever since.
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Old 04-23-2005, 05:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis
A person “taken” by a Morgul blade will never become a Ringwraith! The nazgul were “taken” by their rings and got a long life and a great power etc. In other words they were Lords of the Wraiths. Boromir (and Frodo) would have become just simple wraiths. Almost like the Nine, but much weaker and subject to their will. Every time a nazgul used his special brand blade, there was a new wraith in their service.
I disagree. IMO the 'wraiths' would have been subject to Sauron's will alone, though the will of Sauron and the wraiths would be almost identical, but the 'wraith' would not be bound to the Ringwraiths.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 04-23-2005, 10:18 PM   #8
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Maybe it's possible that he received a wound that was by no means mortal, but that the very fact that it came from a morgul blade shortened his days anyway... sort of from the same bag of tricks as the Black Breath, the fear inspired by the nazgul, etc.

Remember that Frodo was wounded on his shoulder - and that the part of the blade inside him was working toward his heart. If Boromir was wounded in say an arm or a leg... or if wounded, but no piece of the blade remained inside of him, there may have been no chance of him becoming a wraith.

Thinking about it again now though, the part of this that surprises me is that even the Witch-king feared him. I guess I remember it now that it comes up again, but I had never thought about it much. I wonder why he would fear him - especially if he already knew Glorfindel's words from 1975 (hmmm... EXACTLY 500 years before he tangled with Boromir...).
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Old 04-24-2005, 11:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telkontar Dunadan
IMO the 'wraiths' would have been subject to Sauron's will alone, though the will of Sauron and the wraiths would be almost identical, but the 'wraith' would not be bound to the Ringwraiths.
I have a quote that explains some things, I believe:
Quote:
Frodo shuddered, remembering the cruel knife with notched blade that had vanished in Strider's hands. `Don't be alarmed!' said Gandalf. `It is gone now. It has been melted. And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days.'
`What would they have done to me?' asked Frodo. `What were the Riders trying to do?'
'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring, if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'
First, Gandalf has known several Men turned into wraiths by a Morgul-blade. It is very likely, IMHO, that it was Gandalf who helped Boromir. Perhaps Valandil is right, that Boromir’s wound was not in a vital place and perhaps left no splinter. But still his life was shortened.

Second, it shows that people stabbed by a Morgul-knife become wraiths under the command of the Ringwraiths.

Third. It shows that wraiths (including the ringwraiths) are not robots, they are able to feel, to suffer, they remember their past and they continue to pine for the rings they have lost. They are slaves of Sauron, not willing and happy servants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil
Thinking about it again now though, the part of this that surprises me is that even the Witch-king feared him. … I wonder why he would fear him - especially if he already knew Glorfindel's words from 1975
Boromir was a skillful captain, and he had reoccupied Ithilien. Control over Ithilien was vital for Minas Morgul. Morgul orcs had to eat something, even if the wraiths do not need food. Ithilien was the hunting ground for Morgul orcs, as the Gorgoroth plain was barren. So Boromir must have annoyed the Morgul Lord a lot and provoked his hatred and thus has sealed his fate I think the Witch-King did not fear Boromir as a treat to his own life, but as one captain fears the abilities of another in warfare. After all, he must have wounded Boromir himself, unless he sent another ringwraith. Morgul blades were hardly ever given to orcs to wield.
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Old 04-24-2005, 11:08 AM   #10
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Thanks for the quote.

Morgul-wound could just mean a wound given from the blade of the Ringwraith, and that was the name given to them, to make them distinctive. If infact it was the same kind of blade that wounded Frodo then I agree with Val that it probably was on the arm or legs.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 04-24-2005, 03:53 PM   #11
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The Morgul-blade is a fragile weapon. It will never pierce a mailshirt or even a leather hauberk. So only the places left unprotected were vulnerable. So it may have been a wound in the leg, below the chainmail, yes.
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Old 04-24-2005, 05:46 PM   #12
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some thoughts...

morgul vale filled with wraiths - yes i think, including some form of 'watcher' maybe
taken by the WK, also a yes from me
boromir I wraith - very possible i think, i think that if he had "disappeared" for lack of better word, then it would have been recorded as 'died' for the reason that if you don't know what has happened to someone, if they vanish in the night, then you would think of them as dead, would you not?
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Old 04-25-2005, 02:04 AM   #13
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Yet this change would not have happened overnight. If he was becoming a wraith then the change would be obvious to others.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 04-25-2005, 03:17 PM   #14
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Sure it was obvious to others. And there had to be other victims of Morgul blades that did turn into wraiths. So the diagnosis was obvious.
I think that Boromir has not turned into a wraith, because he lived and ruled Gondor for 14 (!) years, so he had to be healed, at least partially.

As for Gondor chronicles, you can hardly expect them to record that "the famous Boromir has become a minor wraith in Minas Morgul". The chronicles were kept clean for posterity, the unsavory facts removed. Remember Queen Beruthiel? Exactly like that. Same about Earnur.
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Old 04-26-2005, 03:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordis
:
:
I think that Boromir has not turned into a wraith, because he lived and ruled Gondor for 14 (!) years, so he had to be healed, at least partially.

As for Gondor chronicles, you can hardly expect them to record that "the famous Boromir has become a minor wraith in Minas Morgul". The chronicles were kept clean for posterity, the unsavory facts removed. Remember Queen Beruthiel? Exactly like that. Same about Earnur.
I agree that Boromir was not turned into a wraith, as I've said before.

Poor Eärnur though... he probably WAS!

Hmmm... do you think the spirits of all those who were made wraiths like that were "freed" when the Ring was destroyed?
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:32 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil
Poor Eärnur though... he probably WAS!
For Earnur becoming a wraith I have absolutely no doubts. Can’t say I envy him…to be at Witchy’s mercy for a thousand years!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil
Hmmm... do you think the spirits of all those who were made wraiths like that were "freed" when the Ring was destroyed?
Yes, I think. Just imagine a crowd in Mandos’s human department! Pour Namo has hardly had time to “process” the Dead army from Hornburg and all the men fallen at Pellennor and then on the 25.03, OH, HORROR! All the dead from Morannon AND the wraiths from Morgul AND the Barrow wights AND all the Nine Ringwraiths arriving at once!
Poor, poor, Namo-Mandos!

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Old 05-20-2005, 11:36 AM   #17
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The crowd in Mandos? I forgot was Mandos supposed to JUDGE all the men or just send them further? Anyone has any idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by inked
Great observation! I suspect that he received elvish medicine and did not become a wraith but died very prematurely by the standards of his people. Recall that Frodo's wound per Gandalf was not wholly able to be healed in this world. And Frodo's dealing with the afte-reffects was not pleasant physically or psychologically or spiritually. And he had the unexpected Hobbit resistance to the wound! All IMHO, of course.

Had Boromir I become a wraith (or Tolkien intended us to understand that), I think there would have been descriptions of the abnormality of his physical illness and absence or disappearance rather than death.
My thoughts also.
And what do you think perhaps the Stewards didn't claim the throne because they KNEW King Earnur WAS NOT DEAD? Perhaps they waited for him to come all cold and transparent-like to claim the Throne?
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Old 05-20-2005, 12:05 PM   #18
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No. The fact that Firiel married Arvedui, an heir of Isildur,was probably a well known fact. They were probably waiting for one of their heirs to come and claim the throne.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!"

The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230
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Old 05-20-2005, 06:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
No. The fact that Firiel married Arvedui, an heir of Isildur,was probably a well known fact. They were probably waiting for one of their heirs to come and claim the throne.
Gondor has rejected Arvedui's claim to the throne as women (Firiel) were not allowed to rule or to pass the right to the throne to their children. Aragorn claimed the Throne as a hair of Elendil and Isildur decended from father to son as the line direct of Anarion has died.
As for the "wraith Earnur", I doubt Gondor would be happy if he returned one day... Strange the Morgul Lord has not played this card, though. It might have been a very cruel joke.
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Old 05-21-2005, 08:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain
No. The fact that Firiel married Arvedui, an heir of Isildur,was probably a well known fact. They were probably waiting for one of their heirs to come and claim the throne.
Yes - everyone would have known that Firiel married Arvedui, went to Arthedain and began having children. However - there's no way the people (or Council) of Gondor were waiting around for one of those descendants to come down and claim the throne. For one, they had rejected an earlier (and therefore closer) claim over 100 years before. Second - Arthedain had not existed for a good 75 years. There were no more palantiri in the north and probably no contact between the Chieftains and Gondor. Most Gondorians probably assumed they had just died off - and wouldn't have given any thought to giving their crown to a vagabond descendant of kings even if they showed themselves (and the one to do so would still have been Aranarth - eldest son of Arvedui and Firiel - who would still be Chieftain for another 50+ years).
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