Nazgul horses

[Gordis]

Hi, all!
I have made a curious observation. I hope it was not discussed before.

After the nazgul were drowned at the Bruinen Ford only the bodies of 8 horses were found:

Three of the black horses had been found at once drowned in the flooded Ford. On the rocks of the rapids below it searchers discovered the bodies of five more, and also a long black cloak, slashed and tattered. Of the Black Riders no other trace was to be seen, and nowhere was their presence to be felt. It seemed that they had vanished from the North.
'Eight out of the Nine are accounted for at least,' said Gandalf. 'It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.

So, as you can see, one horse may have remained alive.

Isn't it curious that later only one of the nazgul (the Witch-King) was seen to ride a horse at the siege of Minas Tirith? The rest were constantly on Fell Beasts.

I believe that horse was the same animal that survived the Flood.

So it looks like:
1. One of the Black Riders (most likely the WK) was able to get out of the river without "loosing his shape" (whatever that means) and save a horse and ride to Mordor ahead of the others. Later he probably collected the rest of his Riders on the Fell Beast (remember the shape that flew over the Fellowship near Caradhras)
2. The nazgul had only one trained horse each
3. The training took a long time, not just a single spell, but probably a lot of petting and carrot-feeding

What do you think on it?

[me9996]

Originally Posted by gordis

Hi, all!
I have made a curious observation. I hope it was not discussed before.

After the nazgul were drowned at the Bruinen Ford only the bodies of 8 horses were found:

So, as you can see, one horse may have remained alive.

Isn't it curious that later only one of the nazgul (the Witch-King) was seen to ride a horse at the siege of Minas Tirith? The rest were constantly on Fell Beasts.

I believe that horse was the same animal that survived the Flood.

So it looks like:
1. One of the Black Riders (most likely the WK) was able to get out of the river without "loosing his shape" (whatever that means) and save a horse and ride to Mordor ahead of the others. Later he probably collected the rest of his Riders on the Fell Beast (remember the shape that flew over the Fellowship near Caradhras)
2. The nazgul had only one trained horse each
3. The training took a long time, not just a single spell, but probably a lot of petting and carrot-feeding

What do you think on it?

Don't think so, Tolken was a very good wrighter...

[Nurvingiel]

I don't see why they wouldn't just train more than one horse per Nazgul at the same time Gordis. (Or at least, in orverlapping timelines.) This could also have coincided with a fell beast development program.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I don't see why they wouldn't just train more than one horse per Nazgul at the same time Gordis. (Or at least, in orverlapping timelines.) This could also have coincided with a fell beast development program.

Considering that the riders were emitting such fear "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), I wouldn't say that it will be an easy task to train the horse. Probably this horses has been picked out of thousands of others who were so scared of Nazgul, that became untrainable.
They, probably had more success with Fell beasts.

Great observation, gordis!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i agree with olmer here, it is quite obvious, to me, that the training of the black horses would be a long process, seeing as how the nazgul inspire terror in all living things, including the orcs and trolls - on the other hand, the fell beasts were nurtured by sauron, or the nazgul, fed with fell meats

Originally Posted by The Return of the King

The Battle of the Pelennor Fields
A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil. And the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all things that fly; and he gave it to his servant to be his steed.

but of course, this begs the question, What were the fell beasts?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Considering that the riders were emitting such fear "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), I wouldn't say that it will be an easy task to train the horse. Probably this horses has been picked out of thousands of others who were so scared of Nazgul, that became untrainable.
They, probably had more success with Fell beasts.

Great observation, gordis!

That's a good point, but I still think they could find more than nine. I agree that it would take a long time though.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by me9996

Don't think so, Tolken was a very good wrighter...

An ordinary "wrighter" would have made the Elves find all the Nine horses. But Tolkien was a genius. There are always things unanswered, something you can muse about…

Originally Posted by Olmer

Considering that the riders were emitting such fear "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), I wouldn't say that it will be an easy task to train the horse. Probably this horses has been picked out of thousands of others who were so scared of Nazgul, that became untrainable.
They, probably had more success with Fell beasts.
Great observation, gordis!

Thanks, Olmer.
Yes I agree. The nazgul horses must have been quite unique. And not only were some horses "picked out of thousands of others who were too scared of Nazgul", but also perhaps these selected ones had to be interbred to get foals to be trained by nazgul from a very young age. Bottlefed by nazgul, perhaps . (Gandalf says that they were "BORN and BRED in the service of Mordor").
Nazgul could "look through the eyes of their horses" ho help their poor eyesight, that means they had to establish a pretty strong mental connection with the horse.

Moreover, they were OUTSTANDING horses, not the sorry maltreated creatures of PJ's movie. Gandalf praising Shadowfax says: "The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him" However, you can see from the example below that they come very close behind:
Tale of Years
Nazgul: Fords of Isen - 18.09; Sarn Ford - evening 22.09
Gandald on Shadowfax: Fords of Isen - 24.09; Sarn Ford - 28.09

So it took the same time (4 days) for Shadowfax and the nazgul horses to cover the same distance! And Gandalf said he has ridden in a great hurry!

So, possibly the nazgul horses were all of Mearas blood, therefore very rare to come by. It seems that Shadowfax had no fear of the nazgul, so perhaps his kin was also eligible for this character.

I believe that given all those difficulties with horses, each nazgul started training a new horse when the previous was growing old. That was sensible in times of peace. And, remember, Sauron was not planning to start the war that soon, until in 3017 he learned about the Ring from Gollum. So in two years there was no time for the nazgul to train extra horses. And even much less time after their own were drowned.

[strider8]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i agree with olmer here, it is quite obvious, to me, that the training of the black horses would be a long process, seeing as how the nazgul inspire terror in all living things, including the orcs and trolls - on the other hand, the fell beasts were nurtured by sauron, or the nazgul, fed with fell meats




but of course, this begs the question, What were the fell beasts?

That would make quite an interesting thread LCoU.

P.S.Can i call you LCoU for short, if not i apologise greatly

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well according to UT it took the Nazgûl a long time to reach Dol Guldur from Mordor horseless. This could mean that it was the WK above the The Company on Caradhras, but this would mean that he did not remain on horseback for the entire Search and War of the Ring.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Well according to UT it took the Nazgûl a long time to reach Dol Guldur from Mordor horseless. This could mean that it was the WK above the The Company on Caradhras, but this would mean that he did not remain on horseback for the entire Search and War of the Ring.

I never said that the Witch-King had no Fell Beast of his own! I meant only that the 9 nazgul were left with only one horse for the War of the Ring.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Good catch!
It certainly is a possibility that I had overlooked; I don't think we will ever know for sure.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by strider8

That would make quite an interesting thread LCoU.

P.S.Can i call you LCoU for short, if not i apologise greatly

certainly

[Pytt]

Agree that the horses needed along training. And as Gordis saying, about the time compared to Shadowfax, they were most ceartainly Mearas. Which is rare. But I would assume they had the chance to breed more than 9 of these horses.

Maybe they had more, but by something Sauron found it more usefull to let them use Fell beasts. Getting the hobbits from Sarumann, searching for Frodo etc. And since WK( let's assume he was the one with a horse) should leed the battle, maybe it was more usefull with him on the ground, having more controll of his forces against Minas Tirith. So they had more horses, but didn't use them. Make sense?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Considering that the riders were emitting such fear "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), I wouldn't say that it will be an easy task to train the horse. Probably this horses has been picked out of thousands of others who were so scared of Nazgul, that became untrainable.
They, probably had more success with Fell beasts.

Great observation, gordis!

Olmer! Glad to see you are still about!!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Pytt

And since WK( let's assume he was the one with a horse) should leed the battle, maybe it was more usefull with him on the ground, having more controll of his forces against Minas Tirith. So they had more horses, but didn't use them. Make sense?

Of course it is possible, but not likely IMHO. They could breed more than nine but training a horse must have been a long process, taking lots of nazgul time. And you are right, when a nazgul leads troops in a battle he is more efficient on the ground, not flying overhead and screaming. The other 8 nazgul were pretty useless as leaders during the Pelennor and the Morannon battles, IMO. So probably they didn't have horses available.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Pytt

Agree that the horses needed along training. And as Gordis saying, about the time compared to Shadowfax, they were most ceartainly Mearas. Which is rare. But I would assume they had the chance to breed more than 9 of these horses.

Maybe they had more, but by something Sauron found it more usefull to let them use Fell beasts. Getting the hobbits from Sarumann, searching for Frodo etc. And since WK( let's assume he was the one with a horse) should leed the battle, maybe it was more usefull with him on the ground, having more controll of his forces against Minas Tirith. So they had more horses, but didn't use them. Make sense?

1) While only 8 horses were found, it is a leap in logic to assume that one is alive. It is possible, but not a foredrawn conclusion
2) It would also be unwise, even in peacetime, to only breed a single horse for your generals. A spare is always needed. And while Sauron wasn't planning to start the war so soon, he was planning to go to war, so he probably had more than one horse per Nazgul.
3) There is a rather strange thing here. The WK is on horseback at dawn at the gates of Minas Tirith. Only a short while later, moments after dawn he is on his flying beast being faced down by Eowyn. Recall the scene: at the first crack of Dawn the Rohirrim charge, Theoden far out in front. In the growing light the Easterling king spies him and he and Theoden clash before dawn is fully in the sky. Theoden wins, the new born sun reflecting from his golden shield, to be blotted out by the approach from above of the WK on his winged beasty.

Now we can certainly posit that the WK kept his "fell beast" close at hand so that riding from the gate, he could switches steeds quickly. But is that likely--that a beast that could be killed would just be marched right up to within sight and shot of the walls? Possible, but just doesn't ring true to me. I think this is a spot Tolkien didn't think out well. Not that I care...

FB

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

1) While only 8 horses were found, it is a leap in logic to assume that one is alive. It is possible, but not a foredrawn conclusion
2) It would also be unwise, even in peacetime, to only breed a single horse for your generals. A spare is always needed. And while Sauron wasn't planning to start the war so soon, he was planning to go to war, so he probably had more than one horse per Nazgul.
3) There is a rather strange thing here. The WK is on horseback at dawn at the gates of Minas Tirith. Only a short while later, moments after dawn he is on his flying beast being faced down by Eowyn. Recall the scene: at the first crack of Dawn the Rohirrim charge, Theoden far out in front. In the growing light the Easterling king spies him and he and Theoden clash before dawn is fully in the sky. Theoden wins, the new born sun reflecting from his golden shield, to be blotted out by the approach from above of the WK on his winged beasty.

Now we can certainly posit that the WK kept his "fell beast" close at hand so that riding from the gate, he could switches steeds quickly. But is that likely--that a beast that could be killed would just be marched right up to within sight and shot of the walls? Possible, but just doesn't ring true to me. I think this is a spot Tolkien didn't think out well. Not that I care...

FB

Agree to what you are saying. And I am also of the belief that they had more horses, even if the training (meant that last time) took along time. We are after all talking about the leaders of the Evil fleet.
About the leap assuming one is alive, the whole thread is based on that, so I took it from there.

I think the WK had some way, maybe mentaly, to get in connection with his Fell Beast, so he easily could summon it at his need. If it was keept in Osgiliath for example, the distance is traveled on no time, and he have time to leave, and shortly after taking down Theoden.

oh, come on, care a bit for this interessting discussion

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

1) While only 8 horses were found, it is a leap in logic to assume that one is alive. It is possible, but not a foredrawn conclusion
2) It would also be unwise, even in peacetime, to only breed a single horse for your generals. A spare is always needed. And while Sauron wasn't planning to start the war so soon, he was planning to go to war, so he probably had more than one horse per Nazgul.
3) There is a rather strange thing here. The WK is on horseback at dawn at the gates of Minas Tirith. Only a short while later, moments after dawn he is on his flying beast being faced down by Eowyn. Recall the scene: at the first crack of Dawn the Rohirrim charge, Theoden far out in front. In the growing light the Easterling king spies him and he and Theoden clash before dawn is fully in the sky. Theoden wins, the new born sun reflecting from his golden shield, to be blotted out by the approach from above of the WK on his winged beasty.
Now we can certainly posit that the WK kept his "fell beast" close at hand so that riding from the gate, he could switches steeds quickly. But is that likely--that a beast that could be killed would just be marched right up to within sight and shot of the walls? Possible, but just doesn't ring true to me. I think this is a spot Tolkien didn't think out well. Not that I care...FB

1. I said one horse may have remained alive…
and it was curious that only one nazgul horse was seen later in the War of the Ring battles
It may or may not be a coincidence.

2 We do not know if Sauron was planning to start the war anytime soon before 3017, when he learned about the Ring. Soon yes, but may be in 50 years. Time goes slow for those eternal guys…

Then before 3017 nazgul sat quietly in Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur. Sauron started to use them as messengers and commando force only for matters connected with the Ring. Remember Gandalf's surprize when he learned that the nazgul rode forth? And the risk to loose a horse when in Mordor itself was minimal. I bet the animals were pretty well cared for.

3. I agree with Pytt there. I imagine that the Witch-King could "whistle" for his Fell-Beast or call it by a nazgul screech or by a mental order. The beast could fly to him then and there, there was no need to have it marched to the front lines. So shifting mounts and flying to Theoden was a matter of minutes.
Best,
Gordis

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by gordis

Of course it is possible, but not likely IMHO. They could breed more than nine but training a horse must have been a long process, taking lots of nazgul time. And you are right, when a nazgul leads troops in a battle he is more efficient on the ground, not flying overhead and screaming. The other 8 nazgul were pretty useless as leaders during the Pelennor and the Morannon battles, IMO. So probably they didn't have horses available.

Oh, quite disagree. First, the number of horses available for training depends greatly on the number of mares one has and how randy the stallion(s). A small heard of 20 would be more than sufficient in the natural world to supply 9 Nazgul with 2 horses each all but simultaneously. And who says that the Nazgul themselves trained them? Visited often, sure, so that the beast wouldn't fear them, but there's no need to have the Nazgul do the actual training. I'm sure Sauron had more than 20 horses.

Second, as we've learned so well in the modern period, the ability to see the battle from above is so much better than being on the ground. The WK opted to be on the ground in order to shatter the gates and be the first one through, but he could communicate with the others ranging over the battlefield.

Third, unless I missed something we aren't told that all 8 are there. That there are more than one, yes, but once battle is enjoined other Nazgul may in fact be elsewhere--one in command of the forces attacking Lothlorien from Dol Guldur.

Fourth, psychological warfare. That was the Nazgul's chief responsibility and they did it well. If the defenders lose the will to fight, and they did, then the battle is already won.

FB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Pytt

Agree to what you are saying. And I am also of the belief that they had more horses, even if the training (meant that last time) took along time. We are after all talking about the leaders of the Evil fleet.
About the leap assuming one is alive, the whole thread is based on that, so I took it from there.

I think the WK had some way, maybe mentaly, to get in connection with his Fell Beast, so he easily could summon it at his need. If it was keept in Osgiliath for example, the distance is traveled on no time, and he have time to leave, and shortly after taking down Theoden.

Perhaps, but we aren't really told, are we?

oh, come on, care a bit for this interessting discussion

Oh, I only meant that for the purposes of reading the story and enjoying it, I don't think I want to know about things like those I mentioned.