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05-22-2005, 03:41 PM | #1 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I have some ideas of my own. Here they are in short. 1. I believe that the WK's real name would be erased from the records for sure (as they have done later with the poor cat-lover Beruthiel who was only guilty of not being to her hasband's tastes). 2. I believe The WK was the one who commanded the Numenorean army sent to rescue Gil-Galad around SA 1700, so at least he was a prince of the royal house. 3. I believe the elves kept all the info about the rings secret from their human rescuers and allies. 4. I believe Sauron, being defeated, swore allegiance to Numenor and gave rich tribute and gifts to Numenoreans to stop them from attacking Mordor. One of the gifts would have been an elven ring to the Numenorean commander. So Sauron practically did the same trick he repeated later with Ar-Pharazon. What do you think of it? |
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05-22-2005, 04:04 PM | #2 | |
Elf Lord
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1. Agree, the same as it was erased any mentions about The Witch of Cardolan, or made the records so confusing that nobody would think to sit down and sort it out. 2. Agree with correction: he was a heir of the crown. 3. Completely agee. This why theirs records deviating from the records of Gondor. 4. Yes, this was the way Sauron got the WK, the prince, who soon would take the throne. And he did not wait for too long, asking his father to move out. Tar Minastir coming out clean of such accusation: he had never met with Sauron. |
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05-22-2005, 04:34 PM | #3 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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1. What is the Witch of Cardolan? 2. He was certainly the one with the highest lineage in all of the army, otherwise he would not be the chief. Wasn't Ciriatan too young? He would be about 65, not exactly a baby, but still... (They lived 400 years). Perhaps it was Tar-Minastir's younger brother or a even his father (Isilmo) who was in charge? 3. You mean Tale of Years and UT - the Line of Erlos? They do deviate, but which is "elven" and which is "human"? And why? 4. Plausible. But IF you are right, why didn't Ciriatan bring Numenor to Sau's feet while he was the King? Perhaps Ciriatan proved to be the morsel too big to swallow even for Sauron? Why did he pass the sceptre and made people believe he died? 5.Another point is that I have a feeling that Erlond and Gandalf knew all too well who the WK was but kept it secret. And for a good reason, the WK was much closer relative to Erlond than Aragorn. Isn't it strange that the info about the Second nazgul Khamul was open, while nothing about the First was let out. Who cares about those Easterlings? They are evil anyway... 6.And the last thought. I believe Glorfindel and the WK were well acquainted in the Second Age. They must have come together to the ME from Numenor and fought side-by side against Sauron. That's why the WK was reluctant to fight Glorfindel and the latter has not tried to pursue him. And people normally don't make prophesies about the fate of total strangers they don't care about... |
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05-23-2005, 12:29 PM | #4 | |
Elf Lord
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2.Never heard of Minastir's younger brother. He had older sister, thought, the Queen... Isilmo ?... slight possibility. I place my bet on the son of Tar-Minastir, he was not older than Aragorn, in fact he would be at his prime time for actions. 3 "Tales of the Years" were the records of Merriadoc "obtained with assistance and information from Rivendell"(FOTR) 4. Actually, unlike other king's, his date of death is quite confusing. By my calculation he gave his sceptre at age 617, ruling for 382 years - twice than his other predecessors.I think it more than enough to make people begin to wonder. Why he needed to bring Numenor to Sau's feet? He was not under his total control. As you know the prosess was a slow corruption and mainly depends on the strength and the greatness of person. Galadriel thought that she is strong enough to wield the ring without drastic consequences. 5. That's right, Elrond did know that the WK was his nephew 11 times removed.This why the dates, given to Merriadoc are incomplete. But Tolkien was strongly pointing on the fact that "The dates given are often conjectural, espesially for the Second Age, they DESERVES ATTENTION."(FOTR) 6 .Very interesting thought! It might be quite plausible assumtion. Last edited by Olmer : 05-23-2005 at 12:37 PM. |
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05-23-2005, 12:43 PM | #5 |
Elf Lord
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Valandil!
Somehow the discussion of Boromir stirred into a very interesting subject. I understand that splitting the threads is a such hard work , but can you move it into the new theread? |
05-23-2005, 01:40 PM | #6 | ||
Enting
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05-23-2005, 04:43 PM | #7 | ||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Hi, Olmer. We continue to agree with each other .
1. Witch of Cardolan... If it is indeed in HOME, I can narrow your search a little. I am certain that there is nothing like that in vol. VI - IX. Nothing in UT as well. So the most likely place would be "Peoples of ME" which I haven't read. Quote:
Therefore in 1700 when the fleet sailed, the dramatis personae in Numenor were: The Queen was 380, she never married and, I believe, was a sort of Elisabeth I of England. Her brother Isilmo must have been 365 - 330, so the old age was close, but still he had many good years before him. Moreover, at the time HE must have been the Queen's heir, not Tar-Minastir. Minastir (heir's heir) was 225. His younger brother (IF one existed) may have been around 200 Ciryatan was 66 (and was the heir of the heir of the heir) So which one took the fleet to the war? Hard to tell, actually. Not Minastir, if we believe the Tale of Years and the Line of Elros. But the sources do not say that it were Ciryatan or Isilmo either. NO NAME is given for the commander of the army! Queer? I personally believe it was NOT Minastir, all we know about his character (learning elven lore and gazing westward) makes it very unlikely. The hypothetical brother, IF he was the one who commanded the army AND got the Ring, would have tried later to dispose of Tar-Minastir and become the King. Nothing such has happened. OR it is not mentioned. Isilmo remains likely IF he had previous military experience and sailed to ME. And he would be sorely tempted to get a way to prolong his life, much more than young Ciryatan. But the problem that no kin-strife ensued remains. And you are right that Ciryatan is the likeliest choice, as he HAD sailed to ME before, it is a known fact. So, in general I agree with you though I am aware of some difficulties. Quote:
Actually you probably know that (unlike us who know better ) most of the "researchers" looking for the WK's identity were supposing that the Elves DID pass all the Ring-info to Numenoreans. So they were looking mostly for a FRUSTRATED person with a good claim to the throne. They were looking for a person whose rights were slighted and who may have hated the Royal family enough to turn consciously to Sauron. Hence Isilmo. The Queen Telperien was not quite legitimate, as the custom (if not the law) demanded of the elder girls to refuse the scepter in favor of the younger brother. But as she remained unwed and had no children, it was the LAW this time to pass the scepter to her brother, and she didn't do that. Remember Ancalime HAD to marry to keep the right to the throne even under the new law made by Aldarion. So Isilmo had the RIGHT to be king. The same limitations apply to the ICE theory of a "bad" Numenorean prince-youngest son of Ciryatan. But I think that this approach is wrong. Tolkien explicitly states that the Ring was a snare for good ones, not a reward for bad ones. It was used to ensnare a person who would NEVER serve Sauron otherwise. Quote:
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I am afraid, the existence of this part of UT it is the biggest problem with your Ciry theory. Quote:
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Very, very interesting discussion for me at least. Please, Valandil, put it into a separate thread! Maerbenn, thanks for the contribution. But what do you think on the main subject? Strange that nobody else joins us. HEY, MOOTERS! |
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05-23-2005, 10:05 PM | #8 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Butterbeer, your feeling is familiar to me, but it's better than to get silence because you are "raving lunatic" Any way, if people don't answer, they have nothing to say, or just simply don't have enough time to give a full respond ( like me, most of the time ). Nothing personal. Keep talking and stick around.
Maerbenn, thanks a lot for the tip! Now I know that it was not Tolkien's slip out or fickle of my imagination. He had the witch in his mind. I'll keep searching, then. gordis, yes, you are right.My mistake, I should check with "annals", but I was away from my books. But, any way, Minastir's younger brother is totally unbased assumption. Therefore in 1700 Tar-Minastir sends the fleet to the war. He doesn't go himself. Such decision to get country into the war has to come only from the highest instance, the King. Note, that according the Annals Tar-Telperein is still a ruler, but the important decisions to get into the war takes not her brother, but Tar-Minastir, her nephew.If we assume that Isilmo was a commander of the army, would not it be too strange that the father is staying under his son's subordinance? I think Isilmo comes out clean. The best possible candidate for the Commander of the fleet would be Tar-Minastir's son Ciryatan. I don't see any difficulties in my theory- all pieces just falling strangely in place. And of course you are wrong about the source of my calculation, you can't use just one source for comparing and deducting, I studied all information about Numenorians what possibly you can find in Tolkien's writings. And I don't understand, are you trying to be too sly or too smart by testing me? Tar-Anducal has absolutely nothing to it ,and, unlike Tar-Ciryatan's, his dates don't have any discrepancy with the dates in other sources. Futhermore, why on the earth the elves should blab out about the Rings, which they made themselves in the first place, when 5000 year later they are still keeping a tight lips about it? The blame would be forever on them! No, Sauron's future homage was not advertized and this why it had been gladly accepted. The fact that they took off their rings doesn't mean nothing. And what do you mean by "Sau's dominion"? Sauron was quite happy and busy extending his power eastward and the king, corrupted by the ring, was spreading this corruption all over the country. Sauron did not have to do nothing, but just to sit and watch how the country slowly becoming just an extention of his own domain, filled with people who would worship and listen to him without any magic of the Ring. And what is "the line of Elros in UT" ? Probably Gondor's doctored records, after all, elven's records were in the Red Book. Last edited by Olmer : 05-24-2005 at 08:16 AM. |
05-23-2005, 11:49 PM | #9 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Yes - I almost did it earlier, at the first suggestion. It's certainly time now.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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05-24-2005, 07:43 AM | #10 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Thanks, Valandil, for making it a separate thread!
I have little time now, so just a quick reply. Quote:
I mentioned Tar-Ancalime the daughther of Aldarion and Erendis (UT) who was the cause of the change of the laws of succession. |
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05-24-2005, 02:10 PM | #11 | |||
Lady of the Ulairi
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Butterbeer, I can't find your post…Was it about lunatics?
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The same about Isilmo theory I posted the link to. You may argue against it, I don’t agree with it either, but at least it is elegant (explaining the sigil of Morgul) and witty. I like how it explains the WK's reaction to strong-headed women: since he was kept away from the throne by his headstrong sister Telperien, every time when he saw another woman of that kind he just gripped his mace and ... Quote:
Well "The Line of Elros" in UT can't be a source of your calculations. It is as straightforward as a timetable. Telperien 1320-1731 Minastir 1474-(1869)1873 Ciryatan 1634-(2029) 2035 Atanamir 1800-2221 Ancalimon 1986-2526 And so on Quote:
I know, though, that in the Tale of Years there is a discrepant entry: "2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre". Christofer Tolkien believes it to be a mistake amended in UT. You do rely on this, don’t you? If so, Ciryatan lived 1634-2251 and here are your 617 years. I have solved your riddle! But what about Atanamir then? In 2251 he would be 451. HE could hardly survive that long waiting for his eternally young father to kick the barrel? Or was he also a nazgul? |
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05-24-2005, 03:39 PM | #12 |
Enting
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 54
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Essay
I’m surprised that Valandil hasn’t posted this link yet: The name of the Witch-king; a proposed answer
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05-24-2005, 04:11 PM | #13 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
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and your ( very hard to get by the looks of it ref: the WK and the ring of power hypothetical ... hears Gordis sigh ... )
opinion Maerbenn? I am just skimming this thread at the mo but from what i quickly skimmed of your excellent link can see that perhaps the cogniscenti of this thread may not perhaps agree? well, the games' afoot .... |
05-24-2005, 04:24 PM | #14 | |
Elf Lord
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made me feel a lot better cheers! I never considered you a raving lunatic anyway for what it's worth! My respect. Gordis: ... er .. no it wasn't about lunatics! thanks for the thought, but best to leave thAT particular (thing) hanging in limbo .... cheers anyway. Sorry to post such personal non-on-subject post: i'll try to research it (identity of wk) but cannot see me getting the time to do so... best BB BTW Gordis the quote: was it about lunatics? well that has to be a classic! Coming from nowhere (seemingly!) that really made me laugh! I don't mean this in a bad way at all: but why did you jump to the conclusion it was about lunatics? God bless! that in itself was really funny! Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-24-2005 at 04:36 PM. |
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05-24-2005, 04:58 PM | #15 |
The Intermittent One
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the witch king was elros and his consort was galadriel the evil
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05-24-2005, 06:56 PM | #16 |
Elf Lord
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Now! Last Child! be serious
(seriously) you know where you and I start posting threads get obliverated very quickly: it wouldn't be at at all right for this thread to be put in danger - i look forward to posting with you in the soon to be 'charlie has big ears and noddy nods a lot' kind of thread that may one day happen ..... ( or not if current form is any go-by) but out of genuine respect for the mooters in this thread let's not even think about rocking this boat (please ?) ( nothing personal by the way: i hpe that goes without saying! ) AGAIN: sorry for diluting this excellent discussion with trivia: please ignore it and carry on ... if i get the chance to do some research i hope to join in but sadly do not think i will have anything worthy to add just now ( i'm not sure that doesn't make the whole post even worse! ) cheers BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 05-24-2005 at 07:03 PM. |
05-25-2005, 02:50 AM | #17 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Can't the Ring just have been found, like Bilbo found the One? Sauron probably knew that the Numenorean fleet was on it's way, so it is possible that the Ring was just planted. I think that Olmer is right and it probably was Tar-Minastir, but I doubt very much that Sauron, or one of his orcs just walked up to him and gave him his Ring. I think thaat either he found it, or a Man, perhaps an Easterling joined on and somehow gave it to him.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
05-25-2005, 06:53 AM | #18 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Wow TD, you've been convinced it's Tar-Minastir already!?
Maerbenn - I had heard the theory before, but hadn't seen that essay. I truly doubt that the W-K was any of the Numenorean Kings... someone from the royal family possibly, since other family members may well have had prominent positions of leadership in Middle Earth (appointed as governors for particular regions, etc). IIRC, three of the nine were Numenorean - I had always thought the W-K was likely one of them. Tar-Elmar - possibly, but it really struck me as an attempt to just write another story - and later to work it more carefully into ME history. There's just too little to go on to establish him as the leading candidate. I think JRRT either thought it best to leave the W-K's identity mysterious, or didn't have time to work it all out, or didn't wish to. I don't think a Numenorean King would have given up the island kingdom - nor can I imagine why Sauron (who had the Ruling Ring all that time) would even wish or allow him to.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
05-25-2005, 06:54 AM | #19 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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You see, after sitting in the Tower of the Moon in Minas Morgul for a thousand years one becomes queer Dancing under the full moon... But seriously, Butterbeer, I am sorry if I appeared to pry on your private messages. I am just genuinely interested in your opinion. AND IN YOURS, MAERBENN! SIGH Quote:
Here are two more links to "Unidentified Prince" theories: http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm Iron Crown Enterprises (ICE): http://www.rockjakten.com/nazgul_html/murazor.html Enjoy! Last edited by Gordis : 05-25-2005 at 06:55 AM. |
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05-25-2005, 07:32 AM | #20 | ||
Lady of the Ulairi
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Yes, you are right, there are many ways to deliver the ring to the unsuspecting target. But it is a FACT that Numenoreans vanquished Sauron utterly in SA 1700. Surely Sauron hated the Numenorean leader and giving him a Ring would be the best vengeance possible as well as the way to get an outstanding war leader to work for him. Quote:
I agree with you opinion about Tal-Elmar theory. There is nothing in the Tolkien's text pointing that that was meant as a story of one of the nazgul, let alone the Witch-King. I also think that the idea that ANY of the ruling Kings of Numenor was a nazgul is far-fetched. I do not believe, as I said earlier, that one can wear a nazgul ring for 330 (or 550+ years) and remain free from the will of Sauron wielding the One. The elves didn't dare to do it even for a day! It Ciryatan were a nazgul, the Downfall of Numenor would have occurred 1000 years earlier, or the island would have accepted Sauron as their liege... But if you only have to choose among the persons NAMED by Tolkien, as Olmer tries to do, Tar Ciryatan and Isilmo are the best choices. At least it has to be their close relative within these three generations. Last edited by Gordis : 05-25-2005 at 07:36 AM. |
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