Theories on the Identity of the Witch-King

[CrazySquirrel]

I like your ideas Gordis and Olmer.
I always thought Witchy was of the line of Elros, as he was a sorceror, and I believe all human sorcerors and prophets were of that line (maia blood+elven blood).

[Gordis]

HEY OLMER!!!

Don't you disappear, please!

Tell me, have I solved your 617 years riddle correctly?

Regards,
Gordis

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

HEY OLMER!!!
Don't you disappear, please!
Tell me, have I solved your 617 years riddle correctly?

I don't disappear, even if in my name I have very close connection with reappearance and disappearance of the Witch-king
I'm just being too busy right now.You DO know that it is life after PC?

Yes, you guessed right, but not "solved" the riddle.
To make the long story short, or vise-versa I'm posting my essay from another site, where I'm explaining "in deepth" my take on the Witch-King as the former king of Numenor Tar-Ciryatan.
WARNING! The posting is LONG!

[Olmer]

So, here it is.

Knock-knock? -Who is there?-The Witch-King.- The Witch-King who?
I have read all theories about an origin of the Witch King, and I think that my theory deserves the same recognition as the others, because it has some points, missed by other researches.
I was wondering how people are missing so obvious hints that JRRT planted in the story! Seems like everybody relaying too much on Chris.Tolkien’s (CT) words that any discrepancies in Tolkien’s work has been a mistakes, which his father missed to correct.
Even if he has been close to his father, he couldn’t read his father mind, and, being more of pragmatic, in his perception of his father’s writing he totally missed a huge point, which from the beginning JRRT was delicately pushing to him right in front of his full view, that the faithful readers and admirers (of which CT considered himself) may be missing something, which could be detected by faint hearts and unbelievers. (Let. #96)
Chris totally disregarded his father indication that his stories existed separately, not being invented, but rather revealed through: ”(The stories) arose in my mind as “GIVEN“ THINGS, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew…yet always I had the sense of “recording” what was already “THERE” somewhere not of “inventing“… (Letter#131), and so JRRT had to FIND the logical links, instead of just inventing them, which would be much more easier way to eliminate the inconsistencies. In some instances the logical links are difficult to come by, but it doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.
Chris. Tolkien work and assumptions never has to be taken as a canon, but as just another scholar’s point of view, which at some occasion could be questionable.

So, let’s forget about the“mistakes” which Tolkien forgot to correct, and take them as a tips-off to the mysteries behind the basic thread of the book. After all Tolkien himself was pointing out that “…I have purposely kept all allusion to the highest matters down to mere hints, perceptible only by the most attentive”…(Let. #156), in other words we have to relay more heavily on his finished work, than on his work finished by his son, which brings us to the Annals of Numenorian kings in LOTR’s appendices and “The Line of Elros” in UT. Which dates are more reliable?
I think in the “Annals”, because JRRT wrote them, aiming to the readers of a new edition of his book, revised and accompanied with supplementary, so the hints must be there. According to CT his father was working on the Line of Elros, probably, during his revision of the book and long after it was published, therefore he had a sufficient time to check all dates and to correct mistakes, and it is obviously looking like that in spite of some curious divergences with the “Annals”. ”. But then we are reading CT introduction to UT and finding out that “The Line of Elros” “is a fine manuscript in which the dates of the Kings and Queens of Numenor and of their reigns have been copiously and sometime obscurely emended” which CT endeavored to correct, giving the latest in his own POW formulation. Hence the hints was there also, but CT corrected the “mistakes”.
In this light we have to use “The Line of Elros” as a guide on the dates as they should be in comparison with the dates given by JRRT in the “Annals”. And here we see a quite curious incidence: all entries of the death and life of the Kings of Numenor before and after Tar-Minastir - Tar-Ancalimon times are quite in order and very coordinated with dates given in both annals. Only at period from 1700 to 2251 of the Second Age Tolkien has a disorder with dates. And this disorder is INTENTIONAL. This is why Tolkien was strongly pointing on the fact that "Thought the dates given are often conjectural, especially for the Second Age, they DESERVES ATTENTION."(FOTR), and in my POW the reason for such focus is that they holds the answer of the main puzzle of the book - an identity of the Witch -King.

Let’s start from the fact that any other assumed identities as some of numenorian king’s relatives or someone, who got really pissed off, like Tal-Elmar, falls out because of the one very important point: since he wears the crown, the Witch -King HAD TO BE THE KING before his fading as a Wraith. We know that he became the King of Angmar being a Nazgul, a subordinate of Sauron, so he had to have a crown in his “previous life”, otherwise it would be strangely presumptuous to put on the crown being a servant of the claimant to be the King of the World.
Also, enhanced by the Ring, he had to be a great strategist, warrior, and a person, who achieved a lot in his human life. I’ll take it that in some subtle way J.R.R.Tolkien would point out on that mysterious person.

Definitely it won’t be Tar-Minastir, who, according to the “Annals”, somehow “persuaded” the Queen to pass the right to rule the country over her brother head to her nephew. We don’t know the reasons; probably she got bored and tired, or was afraid to make important decisions at the time when the Great War was devastating the Middle Earth. The fact is that at least for 31 year before her official resignation in 1731, Tar -Minastir was already acting as the Ruler of the Country, making a very important decision to enter his country in the War.
So, in 1700 Tar- Minastir SENDS the great Numenorian fleet to the Middle-Earth as the aid to Gil-Galad. He, himself, stays behind, which means that the Admiral of the Navy could be his father Isilmo, or his son Ciryatan. Very possible that young Ciryatan, being a good mariner, went to the war under commandment of his grandfather.
It’s strange that history has names of the leaders of less important voyages, but of this one the “history” did not save the name. Is there a reason that this name was withhold from the "Tales of the Years", which supposed to be elven‘s annals "obtained with assistance and information from Rivendell"(FOTR) by Merriadoc? Yes, a very good reason! Because it will point out on the person, who received the Ring as a homage gift from the defeated Sauron. Elrond did know who was the WK, because he was of his bloodline, a relative, as matter as fact his nephew 11 times removed. Unlike Lothlorien‘s, the elves of Imladris had pretty active relationship with surrounding neighborhood, building its strength on sympathizers, and the discovery of such interesting skeletons in the closet would cast very undesirable light on the “good neighbors“. This is why the dates, given to Merriadoc were incomplete. Actually, it is quite understandable, many of us would rather forget and never mention the “black sheep” in the family, than broadcast about it.

[Olmer]

But let’s go back to the Ring of Power. To whom Sauron would give that so unique gift? Would it be anyone from the commanding staff? No way! What would he get from Isilmo, a few numenorian’s ships? His aim would be for a higher rank.
And would not it be a cruel irony to give such beautiful offering to the future king, the prince of his suzerain. What a great and creative way to pay back for his defeat! Of course, nobody knew about the real function of the ring as a convertor to Sauron’s will, so Ciryatan innocently and gladly accepted this small golden trinket, which was promised to aid him in acquiring of the great deeds. And just as an unsuspected carrier of deadly virus coming back to doomed because of him homeland, the prince came back to Numenor, and ”the shadow falls on Numenor“, the shadow of doom.
Why Tolkien put such ominous words when seems to be nothing was pointing on impending troubles? The war had been won, the victors are being busy establishing their dominion, Sauron was out of the picture for a while, and Tar -Minastir was a good king, who loved Eldar and explored the seas on the east… Why exactly at Tar-Minastir’s time? The foreboding for the bleak future of growing in power and prosperity Numenor would be in inconspicuous suggestion, understated by Tolkien, that on the Island has arrived something destructive and evil - the Ring of Power on the finger of King’s heir.
Slowly corrupting him, making him the most greediest and the most merciless future Ruler than all of the previous Kings of Numenor, at the same time the Ring made him a restless explorer and bold acquiror of new lands with such self-confidence, that just to be the prince was not enough for him, and in 1869 he made his father to surrender the scepter before the time he would do of his free will. Tar-Ciryatan is the King now, the Witch-King, but he doesn’t know of it, yet. The process of corruption was slow and mainly depends on the strength and the greatness of the person. And Ciryatan became a noteworthy king: the builder of the great fleet, the acquirer of enormous Numenorian wealth, the conqueror of new lands, the oppressor ….
Why, then, in his Annals Tolkien skips completely the mention of such king, who left more milestones of his accomplishments than many other kings? What was wrong with the picture? The picture was stained.
However, Tolkien provide us with another clue, saying that with Ciryatan’s becoming the king …”the first coming of the shadow upon the bliss of Numenor be seen” (UT)
The Ring gives to Tar-Ciryatan an enormous stamina, prolonging his life, but also converting him in his traits into Sauron alike -the cruel conqueror. In his time Numenor became an oppressor of Middle-earth, taking slaves and spoilers to the island.
Next to him is growing the prince Atanamir, who in his behavior took a lot from his father. Seeing his father’s vigor and strength at the age, when it supposed to be the waning of abilities, made him yearn for longer life. Also his desire to cling to the life amplified even more by the fact that he in reality gained the scepter in 2251 at the decline of his long life and he did not want to end his kingship and his life willingly, like Numenorian tradition required. He became the Unwilling, the first Numenorian king who was clinging to his life even when the life was ending in dotage and infirmity. Unfortunately, after crossing the point of normal life span, (and according to different sources he lived 421 - 451 years), the final process of numenorian’s aging is very fast…
Why exactly him Tolkien made an Unwilling? Because in front of him Atanamir had a good example when the death was cheated. In consistent with the given by Tolkien dates in “The tale of the years”, Tar-Ciryatan lived 617 years and even after his official resignation in 2029 he continued to hold the scepter, being the ruler for 382 yeas, twice longer than his other predecessors, which is more than enough to make people begin to wonder.
Did he manage to conceal his abnormally long living with help of the ring, of which knew only very close person - his son, or he became so ruthless that he did not give a flying pig for what others would dare to think about him, we could only guess, but seems that he and his son has had a joint ruling of the country. And it is Tolkien again who is impelling us to such idea.
In the “Acalabeth”(“The Silmarillion“) we have an interesting passage: “These things took place in the days of Tar-Ciryatan, and of Tar-Atanamir, his son”…What is “these things” Tolkien is talking about? He is talking about the conversation between Numenorian's King and the Messengers from Valar, which were sent to Numenor when Eldar snitched to the Valar about numenorian’s desire to see Aman. But “the days of Tar-Ciryatan and of Tar-Atanamir” comes out altogether in about 400. Definitely the messengers were not conversing the warning to the King that “the gift of Eru may not be gain-said”in friendly chit-chatting for such lengthy even for Fangorn’s standards time! The talk could last days, weeks, even months, but the whole lifetime…I don’t think so!
Since they had a conversation with one King, and the “things took place” at the time of Tar-Ciryatan ruling, it should be Tar-Ciryatan they would talk to, but Tolkien said the Messengers came to Tar-Atanamir, also the King. So it’s look like that at the same time there were too Rulers of Numenor.
Why they talked to Tar-Ciryatan’s son, and not to Ciryatan himself? Because the Messengers, (I think that they were the Elves from Aman, who else?!), being able to perceive the world of shadows, recognized that it would be useless to talk to Tar-Ciryatan about greatness of the Gift of Eru, for he have got another gift and he is already in condition beyond all redemption, kind like in old joke about the first sign of syphilis: got black and fell off…
I would dare to suggest that the Messengers in some way advised Tar-Ciryatan to leave the throne for his own good, and in 2251 Tar -Atanamir finally is taking the scepter, acquiring the sole kingship.
And (what a strange “coincidence”!) in the “Annals” Tolkien is registering that “about this time the Nazgul…first appear”! Not earlier, not later!

And so, here was the sad story of Tar-Ciryatan, one of the mightiest kings of Numenor, the defeater of Sauron, and how he inadvertently became the Witch-King, the wraith, who with help of the Ring of Power was forever destined to be Sauron’s servant. What a cruel and ironic twist of fate!
M.Kogan “Olmer”. May 2005.

I have permition to anybody to feel free to pull it apart.

[Gordis]

Bravo, Olmer! I really like your theory! Thanks for posting it.

I see some additional points supporting the theory:

After the 1700 War the men became estranged from the Elves. Why? Normally there should be closer friendship than before! There must have been something that came between the allies. Wasn't it the Ring? Perhaps the Elves told Ciryatan to give it back to them? Perhaps Ciryatan, when he finally learned from bitter experience about the existence of the One, was angry that the elves concealed this information?

Or was it also the separate peace treaty between the Numenoreans and Sauron?
After 1700 the "war never ceased between Sauron and the Elves" (Of the Rings of Power..). Yes, but it HAS ceased between Sauron and the Numenoreans:

Now [Sauron] learned that the kings of Númenor had increased in power and splendour, and he hated them the more; and he feared them, lest they should invade his lands and wrest from him the dominion of the East. But for a long time he did not dare to challenge the Lords of the Sea, and he withdrew from the coasts.
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea. (Akkallabeth).

It looks like Sauron was patiently waiting for the Ring to take over the Numenorean King. He waited and waited and grew angry, for it was much longer than he expected, but he had not attacked before the King turned into a wraith under his dominion. But, even so, the King has NOT brought Numenor to Sauron's feet. In a way Sauron was cheated.

Originally Posted by Olmer

His aim would be for a higher rank. …And would not it be a cruel irony to give such beautiful offering to the future king, the prince of his suzerain. What a great and creative way to pay back for his defeat!

Definitely. His aim must have been the King of Numenor, no more no less. He wanted not only the man as his servant but the kingdom as well.

Originally Posted by Olmer

..the prince came back to Numenor, and ”the shadow falls on Numenor“. ..Why Tolkien put such ominous words when seems to be nothing was pointing on impending troubles? …on the Island has arrived something destructive and evil - the Ring of Power on the finger of King’s heir.

Very likely.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Why, then, in his Annals Tolkien skips completely the mention of such king, who left more milestones of his accomplishments than many other kings? What was wrong with the picture? The picture was stained.

There is a problem here. You suggest that the "Line of Erlos" was "doctored". I agree, it must have been. But why in that way?
It is understandable that the date of Ciriatan's death was amended. It had to be, otherwise it would be crystal clear to any reader that Ciry was a nazgul. But why wasn't it mentioned that Cyriatan was the one who commanded the Numenoreans in the 1700 War? This fact was not at all damning, and VERY hard to conceal. Actually, if that was so, Ciryatan must have been a popular war hero for hundreds of years since. After all it was the first and the only big war the numenoreans were engaged in for the whole Second Age- 3000 years! And they were victorious, defeating Sauron himself and saving the "high and mighty" Elves. So why?

Originally Posted by Olmer

Next to him is growing the prince Atanamir, who in his behavior took a lot from his father. Seeing his father’s vigor and strength at the age, when it supposed to be the waning of abilities, made him yearn for longer life.

Actually his father must have looked completely unchanging, like Bilbo, "not a day older" than when he got the Ring. So it was a weird sight: an ever-young father (with the hint of transparency about him in later years) and an ancient-looking son . Everyone should have wondered and suspected some witchcraft.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Tar-Ciryatan lived 617 years and even after his official resignation in 2029 he continued to hold the scepter, being the ruler for 382 yeas, twice longer than his other predecessors, which is more than enough to make people begin to wonder.
Did he manage to conceal his abnormally long living with help of the ring, of which knew only very close person - his son, or he became so ruthless that he did not give a flying pig for what others would dare to think about him, we could only guess, but seems that he and his son has had a joint ruling of the country. And it is Tolkien again who is impelling us to such idea.

So you believe he officially resigned in 2029 to make things seem normal, but failed to die, instead he became ruthless and practically usurped his son's throne? Therefore Tar-Ciryatan's rule encompasses also Tar-Atanamir's?
I believe it is a well supported idea, congratulations, Olmer!

Originally Posted by Olmer

I would dare to suggest that the Messengers in some way advised Tar-Ciryatan to leave the throne for his own good, and in 2251 Tar -Atanamir finally is taking the scepter, acquiring the sole kingship.

…and dying the same year? Poor Atanamir! What a sad fate to be a nazgul's son!

Originally Posted by Olmer

And (what a strange “coincidence”!) in the “Annals” Tolkien is registering that “about this time the Nazgul…first appear”! Not earlier, not later!

Yes, he must have left for Mordor only when he had faded completely. It looks like he was the last of the nazgul to be overcome by the Ring. It has taken him a very long time to fade.

Great post, Olmer!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Why then did Sauron not take this chance to cause the Downfall of Numenor? Why wait for Ar-Pharazon.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Why then did Sauron not take this chance to cause the Downfall of Numenor? Why wait for Ar-Pharazon.

foresight on whomever would be most susceptible to his charming wit?

[CrazySquirrel]

Olmer, what an impressive piece of research!
Why won't you make a nice article, well beta-ed, and post it somewhere on the Web?

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Why then did Sauron not take this chance to cause the Downfall of Numenor? Why wait for Ar-Pharazon.

I think Gordis was right: Ciryatan has proved to be tough to swallow.
I think Sauron had no idea how the nine rings would really work before the nazgul became laboratory mice and textbook casas . I think he expected Ciryatan to become his nice and obedient servant in a couple of decades, but in reality he had to wait for 550 years. And still Ciryatan had enough will of his own to renounce the scepter and give it to his son and NOT TO DO anything drastic to Numenor. I believe Sauron was mad with the WK for that!
I think at the time Sauron didn't know that the wearing of the ring in itself doesn't promote loyalty to the Dark Lord, instead it causes the bearer to hate Sauron all the more. Please, remember the cases of Gollum and Frodo. They felt HATE for Sauron, not loyalty. Gollum is especially good as an example, as he has almost become a wraith.

Originally Posted by Gordis

So you believe he officially resigned in 2029 to make things seem normal, but failed to die, instead he became ruthless and practically usurped his son's throne? Therefore Tar-Ciryatan's rule encompasses also Tar-Atanamir's?

Why usurped? It looks like the father and the son were very much alike, perhaps they had good relations and Atanamir left his father in charge of Numenor whenever he sailed East?
Just a funny thought here... Ciriatan has got a son when he was already a nazgul. Perhaps Atanamir has become GENETICALLY corrupted?

[Olmer]

Yesterday I typed my respond, but damn program hanged on. All was lost and it was too late to start over.
Here is the second try.
I want to thank gordis and CrazySquirrelfor the nice words of encouragement. If my far-reached ideas can be an inspiration for creative thinking, and can compel some people to reach for Tolkien's books, I would be more than happy to live with knowledge that my time, spent over here, was not a complete waste.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Why won't you make a nice article, well beta-ed, and post it somewhere on the Web?

I, probably, will, if I'll find the site, where has been posted other theories of the origin of Witch-King.
Thought, I would like to add some clarification on the question, which seems to be instantly would pop up after reading the essay (see Telcontar_Dunedainpost ) But here is an ethical issue. Even if I had the answer, I was too late to post it. Since you and gordis uttered it first, I don't want you to think that I'm taking yours ideas. I don't want any hard feeling between us, so I'm asking you two, guys, for permition to incorporate this idea in the article.

Originally Posted by gordis

After the 1700 War the men became estranged from the Elves. Perhaps the Elves told Ciryatan to give it back to them? Perhaps Ciryatan, when he finally learned from bitter experience about the existence of the One, was angry that the elves concealed this information?

Is not it interesting how the history repeated itself 1700 years later with another ringbearer and potential future Nazgul -Isildur?
But in the first occurence an instigation for such estrangement was coming from Men, while later on it was Elves who withdrew from contacts.

Originally Posted by gordis

You suggest that the "Line of Erlos" was "doctored". I agree, it must have been. But why in that way?

Why it was "doctored" in that way? How do I know? Ask Chris. Tolkien, he did it, perhaps thinking that he know better than his father.

Originally Posted by gordis

But why wasn't it mentioned that Cyriatan was the one who commanded the Numenoreans in the 1700 War? This fact was not at all damning, and VERY hard to conceal. Actually, if that was so, Ciryatan must have been a popular war hero for hundreds of years since.So why?

1.Ciryatan could have been under commandement of his father, Isilmo, whose name was not too important to survive through the ages.
2. The fact that whoever at that time was very closely engaged in dealing with Sauron defeat it is already a reason for suspicion and it HAD to be concealed, even if from the beginning it could be hard to do it.
3. Time change perception as it goes by, so the new heros arise and the history is getting rewrited, taking the old idols from pedestal and putting up the new ones.
How many of us remember the Commanders of the Armies of the Civil War?
And it was not a couple of ages ago.

Originally Posted by gordis

Actually his father must have looked completely unchanging, like Bilbo, "not a day older" than when he got the Ring. So it was a weird sight: an ever-young father and an ancient-looking son .

I think this why Ciryatan made look like he resigned in 2029, because later it would look too strange that a young guy gives a scepter to the old man. So he continue to hold the throne and Numenorians were fooled thinking that it is young Tar-Atanamir, and that old chap,shuffling nearby, is his father Ciryatan. No wonder that Atanamir was so ruthless! He was taking on others what he was not able to do with his dear daddy.

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Just a funny thought here... Ciriatan has got a son when he was already a nazgul. Perhaps Atanamir has become GENETICALLY corrupted?

So, you are saying that the scientific experiment went wrong, the lab. rats started to mutate into greedy, ungrateful and unrespective monsters, and Eru desided to roll up the whole project?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

I, probably, will, if I'll find the site, where has been posted other theories of the origin of Witch-King.
Thought, I would like to add some clarification on the question, which seems to be instantly would pop up after reading the essay (see Telcontar_Dunedainpost ) But here is an ethical issue. Even if I had the answer, I was too late to post it. Since you and gordis uttered it first, I don't want you to think that I'm taking yours ideas. I don't want any hard feeling between us, so I'm asking you two, guys, for permition to incorporate this idea in the article.

I think it is a good idea to write a real big article with all the quotes and references. I truly believe it is the best WK theory I have read so far.
I gladly give you permission to incorporate my ideas. After all, that's why these forums exist.
I suggest you post your article again in full here and we can have some more discussion.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Is not it interesting how the history repeated itself 1700 years later with another ringbearer and potential future Nazgul -Isildur?

The history repeats itself all the time
Sauron & WK - Sauron & Ar-Pharazon
Elves & WK - Elves & Isildur
Numenoreans & death - Gondorians & Death.
and so on.

And I think the CrazySquirrel is right, The Witch-King and Isildur were alike as they both were the mightiest sorcerers of the Line of Elros.

Originally Posted by Olmer

1.Ciryatan could have been under commandement of his father, Isilmo, whose name was not too important to survive through the ages.

I think Cyriatan was NOT under orders of his grandfather, Isilmo.

If he were, the Tale of Years would have had an entry "Isilmo mustered and LED the army to ME and conquered Sauron". The fact that it was Minastir who SENT the army, shows that Isilmo
1. either was not around (uninterested in warfare and government or in deep quarrel with the Queen and keeping away from court, perhaps living in ME)
2 or that HIS name was deliberately erased (because HE became a nazgul).

BTW perhaps Isilmo DID become another nazgul? After all, there were 3 Numenorean Lords? Perhaps the Witch-King had his own granddad under his command?

Anyway, I think that Ciryatan, despite his young age of 65, WAS in command of the army as he had previous experience of sailing to ME and had the highest linage in the army (the Queen's heir trice removed).

Originally Posted by Olmer

Numenorians were fooled thinking that it is young Tar-Atanamir, and that old chap,shuffling nearby, is his father Ciryatan. No wonder that Atanamir was so ruthless! He was taking on others what he was not able to do with his dear daddy.

Good idea, perhaps he took his son's place and was at first Ciryatan and then Atanamir. Then he was ruthless and became even more so as Atanamir And his son has not ruled at all. and perhaps was not ruthless at all, just unhappy poor chap, forever waiting for his dad to kick the barrel.

[CrazySquirrel]

Sure, Olmer, you can borrow from me whatever you like!

I like your POV on Atanamir, gordis.

Actually he was called Tar-Atanamir THE GREAT. Perhaps it was just our WITCHY serving his second term as the KING who was GREAT?

And I remember (I have nowhere to check now) that in general the behaviour of Numenoreans at Atanamir's timeshas become not so austere as before, they turned to fun and feasts and intrigues and affairs with women.
I am glad for them, actually. To be like elves is SOOOO dull!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Actually he was called Tar-Atanamir THE GREAT. Perhaps it was just our WITCHY serving his second term as the KING who was GREAT?

You know, now I have a second thought, that probably poor Atanamir did not have a chance to hold the scepter at all and died still waiting for his dear daddy "to kick the barrel". This why his dates if death are emending itself.
And he had not been like his father in personalitiy or in actions, because it was his good old dad acting under his name.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And I remember (I have nowhere to check now) that in general the behaviour of Numenoreans at Atanamir's timeshas become not so austere as before, they turned to fun and feasts and intrigues and affairs with women.
I am glad for them, actually. To be like elves is SOOOO dull!

Very interesting thought!
Yes, the Elven-type behaviour must be hard on humans. All the numenorean culture was originally elven. All the customs also, with men supposed to stay virgin for hundred years before marriage (see Aragorn thread), and to stay faithful to their wives, and no divorse, and no re-marriage.

It worked poorly almost from the start, it seems, long before "the Shadow fell on Numenor" - remember Aldarion and Erendis and an awful man-hater Ancalime?
I wander what was Cyriatan's attitude towards his wife? He probably had several, must have remarried after his wife's death. Perhaps he even had (oh horrible thought) mistresses?

So perhaps the Men needed a free minded nazgul to say: "What the heck, we are Men, not Elves after all?".

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by gordis

So perhaps the Men needed a free minded nazgul to say: "What the heck, we are Men, not Elves after all?".

HEHEHE

Originally Posted by Olmer

You know, now I have a second thought, that probably poor Atanamir did not have a chance to hold the scepter at all and died still waiting for his dear daddy "to kick the barrel". This why his dates if death are emending itself.
And he had not been like his father in personalitiy or in actions, because it was his good old dad acting under his name.

But I think he really died in an ugly way as described.
That is his only action mentioned.

What do you think, Olmer and Gordis, was the next King (Ancalimon? ) Wikkie's child or Atanamir's ?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

What do you think, Olmer and Gordis, was the next King (Ancalimon? ) Wikkie's child or Atanamir's ?

Was that meant as a jest, CS? Anyway, I think that Ancalimon was Atanamir's child all right as he was born before Cyriatan has surrendered the scepter.

OlmerI think you are right that Atanamir was not like his father in personality, because if you look in "The line of Elros" it was rare that sons resembled their fathers in personality. Often it was strong king - weak king -strong king succession.
Interesting that most of the Kings had "Hobbies" which were recorded for posterity.
Minastir loked Elvish lore and sat in a high tower gazing West, another one liked astronomy, another collecting mithril and so on. Perhaps Cyriatan had sorcery as a hobby? That would explain why he was tempted to have a ring of Power in the first place.

[Findegil]

Why must it be a king? Lets think about another name: What about Ciryatur? He was the leader of the fleet that came to Gil-galads help, so he could be easiely reached to recieve the ring (in what ever way).

Respectfully
Findegil

[CrazySquirrel]

Well, where are you, OLMER?
Dissapeared into the spirit world?

[Alcuin]

It seems to me that the Witch-king was from the royal house, and not someone who sat upon the throne. Think about it: who can imagine the megalomaniacal Witch-king giving up his throne to some lesser mortal? It just doesn’t Ring true. Besides, at that point, Sauron would have controlled the kingdom, not a thousand years later.

The timing suggests that the Lord of the Nazgûl was the son of Tar-Minastir, who probably led the Númenórean expeditionary force to Gil-galad’s aid as plenipotentiary for his aunt, Tar-Telperiën, or the son of Tar-Ciryatan, and hence Tar-Minastir’s grandson. The idea in the Witch-king's head that he should have been king is to me like the idea in Sméagol’s head that the Ring should have been his birth-day present: he was the next-in-line (perhaps until Atanamir was born, for instance), he ought to have been king, he should have been king, and so forth.

In the end, he probably helped corrupt Númenor, or at least Tar-Atanamir, setting Númenor on the road to ruin; he destroyed Arnor; he ended the line of Anárion; and he almost destroyed Gondor. He was dead-set on being the king of the Númenóreans, even if he had to kill every last one of them to get the crown. Rather warped, in my mind, but consistently so: “I’ll make you love me if I have to kill you to do it.” Unfortunately, it happens in the real world, even without magic rings.

“Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor” is my essay on this topic.

[Lotesse]

VERY interesting points, Alcuin. And I learned a new word - 'plenipotentiary'!