Carrying things in the spirit world

[Gordis]

Hi, All!
In the thread "Gandalf's second staff" in the movie forum, Halbarad of the Dunedain made an interesting observation, that after the fall in Moria and during imprisonment on Orthanc Gandalf retains not only his staff, but (in the movie as in the book) Gandalf retains his sword Glamdring as well.

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

I think if Gandalf can manage to hold on to his sword then he can certainly hold on to his primary "weapon", his staff.

It has set me thinking and I proposed the following theory on maiar abilities, that I believe belongs more to ME forum, than to the movie forum.

It looks like that persons that are more-than-men (maiar, ringwraiths) can carry things while in the shadow world. Sauron, it seems, managed to retrieve the One from the Fall of Numenor, when his body perished. The ringwraiths while they were traveling through Anorien UNCLAD and invisible to eyes (UT) were not weaponless, I believe.

So perhaps the spirit of Gandalf carried Glamdring and the staff in the shadow world and then made them reappear again in the real world of light?

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

Correct me if i am wrong but does it not say that Sauron left the one ring on Middle-Earth when he was taken to Numenor? Although I don't fully concure with your theory Gordis there still is the point that Gandalf did always have Glamdring, which means that he could very well have always had the same staff.

It seems that Sauron did take the Ring with him to Numenor. Please have a look at the FAQ thread here (Questions E7-E9):
http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q0-InvWhy

How did he carry the Ring to ME after his material body perished?
Tolkien replied himself: "Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring" back to Middle-earth after the drowning of Númenor." [L #211 (280)] So Maiar spirits were able to carry things.

I believe that were Sauron already DEAD before Isildur chopped off his finger, his spirit would have carried the Ring away. Isildur was just very lucky to act at the right moment.

Gandalf was a maia, and he also carried a ring - Narya - wherever he went. After the fight with the Barlog Gandalf died. It seems that Gandalf's body perished (burned) and was reformed, rather than regenerated. At least no scars or traces of first-degree burns were visible. He has got a new body much like Sauron did after Numenor. I don't think he sought his old carcass to find Naria and Glamdring and the staff. I believe he carried all the items to Aman as a spirit and then back, and then re-formed them in the physical world.

Let's take the nazgul as a visible (hmm, more like invisible ) example. I had to give the matter some thought in connection with the RPG I found myself involved in, much to my surprise.

Were the unclad nazgul weaponless?
If we remember the Weathertop scene (in the book, not the movie) the 3 nazgul came quite close, but nobody saw any drawn swords:
"three or four tall black figures were standing there on the slope, looking down on them. So black were they that they seemed like black holes in the deep shade behind them. Frodo thought that he heard a faint hiss as of venomous breath and felt a thin piercing chill. Then the shapes slowly advanced."

Then, Frodo put on the Ring and " immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath their black wrappings. There were five tall figures: two standing on the lip of the dell, three advancing. In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel".

When the others told their story, it seems they never saw any swords: "At length he gathered from Sam that they had seen nothing but the vague shadowy shapes coming towards them. Suddenly to his horror Sam found that his master had vanished; and at that moment a black shadow rushed past him, and he fell."

It looks like the Ringwraiths carried swords in the spirit word, but could act with them in "the word of light" nonetheless. The hilt of morgul knife has become material after use, while the blade disappeared.

I believe it was the same with Glamdring and with Gandalf's staff.

Any ideas?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Interesting. Just one point on Sauron, I think after the destruction if Numenor, he was, as Morgoth before him, only 'allowed' to have the form of a Dark Lord, but correct me if I am wrong.

[Gordis]

Yes, Sauron could not make himself a fair body anymore.
Gandalf, on the other hand, with the blessing of Manwe, made himself a new body even better than the old one

[CrazySquirrel]

Very interesting idea, Gordis. It could account for all these double staffs and unperishable Glamdrings. Perhaps Narsil-Anduril also?

And do you others really think that not a single wizard had ever had his staff shattered, burned or whatever before? Sure they had to remake the things.

And maybe there were situations when they travelled in disguise and couldn't carry staffs with them at all. So were they then powerless? I believe the staff was ever present in the spirit word as Gordis says.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Yes, Sauron could not make himself a fair body anymore.

He couldn't make the fair body instantly, but given the time and with help of the ring he probably would. I think that Sauron made the Ring to insure that if disaster strikes with time the Ring will transmit him enough of the life force, sucked from the most prominient and mighty ringbearer, to make him possible to return to his previous fair form.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by gordis

Yes, Sauron could not make himself a fair body anymore.
Gandalf, on the other hand, with the blessing of Manwe, made himself a new body even better than the old one

Uh, no. It had nothing to do with Manwe, and Gandalf didn't make a new body. Gandalf's fea was SENT BACK (Gandalf's words), by Eru (Tolkien in the Letters), and he entered his old body, but with some of the restrictions removed on what he as Istari could do and could not do. Remember also in your little theory here that Gwahir picks Gandalf up naked and practically weightless. Whether the staff he carries in TT and RoTK is the same old staff or whether he made a new one in Lothlorien while he rested and got his bearings we aren't told.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but where does Gandalf again bear Glamdring in TT or RoTK? Even if he does though, Gwahir could have recovered it, assuming Gandalf had it with him in the final showdown with the Balrog.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

He couldn't make the fair body instantly, but given the time and with help of the ring he probably would. I think that Sauron made the Ring to insure that if disaster strikes with time the Ring will transmit him enough of the life force, sucked from the most prominient and mighty ringbearer, to make him possible to return to his previous fair form.

The text is quite explicit that Sauron lost the ability to appear fair. He had the ring with him when he made a new form after Numenor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

And correct me if I'm wrong, but where does Gandalf again bear Glamdring in TT or RoTK? Even if he does though, Gwahir could have recovered it, assuming Gandalf had it with him in the final showdown with the Balrog.

Gandalf gives it to Hama at the Doors of the Golden Hall.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Gandalf gives it to Hama at the Doors of the Golden Hall.

Good point! I had quite forgotten that Gandalf got things started there by giving up Glamdring.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Uh, no. It had nothing to do with Manwe, and Gandalf didn't make a new body. Gandalf's fea was SENT BACK (Gandalf's words), by Eru (Tolkien in the Letters), and he entered his old body, but with some of the restrictions removed on what he as Istari could do and could not do. Remember also in your little theory here that Gwahir picks Gandalf up naked and practically weightless. Whether the staff he carries in TT and RoTK is the same old staff or whether he made a new one in Lothlorien while he rested and got his bearings we aren't told.

Uh, OK, I take your word that it was Eru himself, not Manwe, who sent Gandalf's fea back to ME.

But, please, provide any textual evidence that Gandalf HAS ENTERED HIS OLD BODY.
I think, there is none.

Instead we have an account of another wizard's death:

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away.

I believe practically the same thing happened to Gandalf's body , while his spirit "as a pale shrouded figure" went West. When he returned, there was no corpse to reanimate, he had to make himself a new body and it was naked, weak and practically weightless at first.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

And correct me if I'm wrong, but where does Gandalf again bear Glamdring in TT or RoTK? Even if he does though, Gwahir could have recovered it, assuming Gandalf had it with him in the final showdown with the Balrog.

Well TD has already reminded you of Edoras.
also in RoTK-Return to Bree: "And Gandalf, too, was now riding on his tall grey horse, all clad in white with a great mantle of blue and silver over all, and the long sword Glamdring at his side."

Yes, Gwahir COULD have recovered Glamdring, but WOULD he? Gwaihir was not exactly a taxi, I think, neither was he an express mail service.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Very interesting idea, Gordis. It could account for all these double staffs and unperishable Glamdrings. Perhaps Narsil-Anduril also?

Thanks for support, CS!
But I think that Narsil-Anduril did not belong to the same cathegory as wizards staffs.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i support the argument that maiar and other spiritual beings (bombadil, goldberry, wights, wraiths etc) would be able to carry certain objects (not a huge chest of gold par example, but a ring, staff, sword maybe) through the unseen wraith/spirit world, and from thence back to the kingdom within, from outside (which also leads me on to a possibility, is the wraith/spirit world the void? is it inside or outside of arda?)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i support the argument that maiar and other spiritual beings (bombadil, goldberry, wights, wraiths etc) would be able to carry certain objects (not a huge chest of gold par example, but a ring, staff, sword maybe) through the unseen wraith/spirit world, and from thence back to the kingdom within, from outside (which also leads me on to a possibility, is the wraith/spirit world the void? is it inside or outside of arda?)

I believe the spirit world is a part of Arda, existing in parallel with the world of light. Glorfindel, for instance, walks simultaneously in both. I believe that is also the case of incarnate Maiar.
And the Void (with Melkor as a sole inhabitant ) exists outside of Arda. Or so I think. I am not sure here.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i support the argument that maiar and other spiritual beings (bombadil, goldberry, wights, wraiths etc) would be able to carry certain objects (not a huge chest of gold par example, but a ring, staff, sword maybe) through the unseen wraith/spirit world, and from thence back to the kingdom within, from outside (which also leads me on to a possibility, is the wraith/spirit world the void? is it inside or outside of arda?)

But why when then would they harm people in the physical world?