Wars of the Palantiri, the Witch-King and the Ithil Stone

[Gordis]

I decided to open a special thread about the wars of the Palantiri and about the use of the Stones for evil purposes. This thread is a derivative of the "Heirlooms of Arnor "discussion.

Gordis wrote:
The Wars in Beleriand were the Wars of the Jewels, the Second Age 1700 war in Eregion and the LOTR war were the Wars of the Rings. I believe that Arnor civil wars and Angmar wars were basically the wars of the PALANTIRI. Everyone wanted them, Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhudaur and Angmar. The Witch King almost got the Master stone of Amon Sul in 1409. He attacked Fornost, I am sure, trying to approach it in secret to assure that nobody would escape and carry the stones away, as it had happened on Amon Sul. In TA 2000, he succeeded to surround Minas Ithil so well, that nobody got out and after 2 years of the siege he got a Palantir at last.

Originally Posted by CAB

What I thought was especially interesting was your idea that the Arnor civil wars and the wars of Angmar were wars of the Palantiri. I had never considered that before. Maybe the taking of Minas Ithil should be included.

After reading this I thought about some of the important similarities shared by the Silmarils, Rings, and Palantiri: wars fought over them; possibly all made by Feanor and his grandson (Gandalf suggests to Pippin that Feanor may have made the Palantiri), with the exception of the One Ring; all preserve something from the past ( Silmarils-light of the two trees, Palantiri-images of past, Rings-made largely for preservation); I’m sure there are more.

One interesting parallel between just the Rings and Palantiri is Sauron’s ability to use them to corrupt and / or dominate other users.

I suppose that the Witch King must have been acting in his own interests during these wars since Sauron was not strong at that time. Probably he wanted to use the Palantiri the same way the Dunedain did since he couldn’t use them to dominate other users like Sauron could. In the Unfinished Tales section on the Palantiri it says that Sauron had no servants whose mental powers were greater than “even Denethor’s”. On a side question, what does this last statement mean? Is Denethor really that extraordinary or, more likely, is the Witch King weakened mentally due to his enslavement to his Ring, or something else? I wonder how the Witch King felt when Sauron returned to claim the Witch King’s hard earned Palantir.

I bet, he felt pretty bad about it. Especially if you consider that Sauron has clamed not only the Witch-King's hard earned Palantir, but also his own Ring and his freedom.
At least that is what I tried to prove in this thread:
http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=12074

And I am happy that you share my idea that the Witch-King was acting on his own during Angmar wars.

Very good points, CAB, about similarities shared by the Silmarils, the Rings, and the Palantiri.
It reminds me of the case of Elendil after the Downfall, when he spent a lot of time in Elostirion, gazing West, at the land that was no more, and at the unattainable shores of Avallone, instead of looking forward, adapting to the new life. Such an elvish thing, looking into the past, trying to stop Time, or to turn it back - harmful tendency for everyone, but more so for humans.

I agree that the sack of Minas Ithil in 2002 should definitely be included into the "Wars of the Palantiri"


Now to the questions about the Witch-King and the Palantir of Minas Ithil.

I think he MOSTLY used the Stone in the same way as Dunedain did, for observation.

But there is this case of Earnur... Tell me, please, don't you think that Earnur has grown fey in exactly the same way as Denethor II?

Originally Posted by CAB

In the Unfinished Tales section on the Palantiri it says that Sauron had no servants whose mental powers were greater than “even Denethor’s”. On a side question, what does this last statement mean? Is Denethor really that extraordinary or, more likely, is the Witch King weakened mentally due to his enslavement to his Ring, or something else?

Firstly, Denethor was somewhat outstanding. In him "the blood of Numenor ran almost true". He must be tougher than an average Steward. And he was an "authorised user" of the Palantir.

Secondly the Witch-King must have weakened considerably at the moment when Sauron took his Ring from him (and it must have happened when Sauron returned to Mordor, around 2942-2951). Also I think his nazgul Ring, as all the Rings, was like a key between the Seen and the Unseen. Without his Ring, the Witch-King was unable to see the world of Light, so, probably, he couldn't use the Palantir at all since 2951 - the quote from UT simply doesn't apply to him only to Sauron's mortal servants.

What do you think on this?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by CAB

"In the Unfinished Tales section on the Palantiri it says that Sauron had no servants whose mental powers were greater than “even Denethor’s”. On a side question, what does this last statement mean? Is Denethor really that extraordinary or, more likely, is the Witch King weakened mentally due to his enslavement to his Ring, or something else?"

Denethor, as gordis says, was an exceptional and proud man. I never thought he was the drunkard portrayed in the P.J movie, but a strong Numenorean who was able, albeit unsuccessfully, wrest with Sauron through the Palantir. This being yet another front in the constant war between Mordor and Gondor, and it took its toll on Denethor.

As for the Witch King operating on his own, he most likely was in the extent that Sauron gave him carte blanche authority to do so when he sent him north. This brings up anoter question pertaining to the Rings in that with Sauron's One Ring either missing in the bottom of the Anduin or in possesion of Gollum under the mountains, did his authority over the nine still exist, or was it weakened but they still served Sauron? We know the elves used their rings while the one was lost. Anyway, I digress...

I am of the thought that Denethor could have wrested control of the Palantir from the Witch King or any of the Nazgul, being that they were so long enslaved and were indeed wraiths of men wheras Denethor was alive.

As far as the sack of Minas Ithil having as its primary goal to obtain a Palantir, I think it was a secondary bonus to Sauron that it was captured. The primary issue was to get the watchtower of Gondor out of being able to see so well into Mordor.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

As for the Witch King operating on his own, he most likely was in the extent that Sauron gave him carte blanche authority to do so when he sent him north. This brings up anoter question pertaining to the Rings in that with Sauron's One Ring either missing in the bottom of the Anduin or in possesion of Gollum under the mountains, did his authority over the nine still exist, or was it weakened but they still served Sauron? We know the elves used their rings while the one was lost. Anyway, I digress...

Snowdog, as unlikely as it may seem, to my knowledge there is not a SINGLE Tolkien quote that says that Sauron SENT the Witch-King north. If you can find one, I owe you a bottle of the finest Nurn wine!

I suggest you read my thread (I have just bumped it) "Were the nazgul free for the most part of the Third Age?".
HERE

I was trying to prove that Sauron has LOST his control over the nazgul when he lost the One Ring, and only regained it by collecting the Seven and then the Nine, with great difficulty. It was done by TA 2951. I am really curious what you will say when you read it.

Originally Posted by Snowdog

I am of the thought that Denethor could have wrested control of the Palantir from the Witch King or any of the Nazgul, being that they were so long enslaved and were indeed wraiths of men wheras Denethor was alive.

So why didn't any of the Stewards do that before him? Some were quite outstanding personalities. But the fact is that it were the Stewards who stopped using the Palantiri for a thousand years in fear of the Witch-King, not the other way round.

[Gordis]

There is a thing that always bugs me in the Palantiri canon.

How can a stone know that it is being used by a rightful owner or not? As if it had gene/blood detector in it...
It necessitates the level of sentience that only the One Ring possessed. Or is it more like that: the rightful owner or his deputy feels more confidant when using a Stone, than an impostor?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Gordis

to my knowledge there is not a SINGLE Tolkien quote that says that Sauron SENT the Witch-King north.

You are right. There is only mention that an evil presence was sensed in Dol Gildur in 1100 of the third age, and shortly thereafter evil was sensed in Carn Dûm and in both places were gathered evil beings. this I get from the Tale of Years in Appendix A in Return of the King.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

You are right. There is only mention that an evil presence was sensed in Dol Gildur in 1100 of the third age, and shortly thereafter evil was sensed in Carn Dûm and in both places were gathered evil beings. this I get from the Tale of Years in Appendix A in Return of the King.

Yes something like that.

‘It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]Appendix A

So at first the Arnorians only blamed Angmar for housing orcs, "other fell creatures??" and evil men.

[CAB]

I am glad you made this a separate thread Gordis. We seemed to be getting a bit off topic.

If I may, let me clarify my opinion of Denethor first. To me there is no question Denethor is a very powerful man, even when compared to the other Stewards. This is clearly stated more than once in Tolkien’s writings. I think the contrast between Denethor and Boromir is especially telling. My reason for questioning the statement that Denethor had greater mental abilities than any of Sauron’s servants is that it would seem that the Witch King should have even greater power. He is a Numenorean of high blood (possibly a King of Numenor, Olmer argued very well for this in an earlier thread) from a time when the Numenorean’s personal (not collective) power is presumably at it’s peak, he has several thousand years experience on Denethor, and has experience with the “Unseen” world. Gordis you rightly pointed out that Denethor is an authorized user of the stone and that the Witch King (without his ring) may not have been able to see the world of light, but the statement in Unfinished Tales doesn’t make these qualifications. It simply says that Sauron had no servants whose mental powers were greater than Saruman’s or Denethor’s. Maybe I am just reading this passage too literally, especially considering it is written concerning the ability to use Palantiri. Regardless, I think your explanation, Gordis, that the Witch King was weakened because Sauron held his ring, is best.

Concerning the “rightful owner” question, I am reminded of when Sauron submitted his “mastery” of the tower on Tol-in-Gaurhoth to Luthien. Maybe it was similar with the Palantiri, one user granting authority to another, with a difference that more than one person could hold this power simultaneously. However this doesn’t explain Aragorn’s situation. Consider this; maybe when Aragorn challenged Sauron by showing himself, his sword, and his banner he might have had the duel purpose of revealing his credentials as the rightful owner of the “seeing stones” to the Palantir, or most likely to all the Palantiri. Remember that Aragorn doesn't take full control of the stone until after this point. It would seem wiser for him to use the Palantir to survey the situation in Middle Earth before making the decision to use it to push Sauron into action. Maybe he was unable to do so until after he had laid his claim as rightful master of the Palantiri.

Gordis you make a very good point concerning the similarities between Earnur and Denethor. For Earnur to ride to the gates of Minas Morgul with nothing more than a bodyguard, leaving behind no heir or acknowledged successor, is an incredibly rash (and selfish) act. I don’t think the situations are exactly the same however. Sauron was able to direct what Denethor was able to see through the Palantir, letting him see only signs of doom and causing Denethor to lose all hope. I doubt the Witch King could choose what Earnur would see (and what would he have to show Earnur anyway that would cause him to think the end was near?) however the Ithil stone and Anor stone were in close accord for communication. Maybe while Earnur was trying to look elsewhere the Witch King was “whispering in his ear” taunting him, using Earnur’s character flaws (Earnur seems especially proud) and other weaknesses against him. Some evidence for this is the fact that Earnur doesn’t act after the Witch King’s first public challenge but does seven years later after the his second public challenge. Why would the Witch King bother with a second challenge? By this time Earnur’s embarrassment from the battle in the North (when Earnur’s horse couldn’t withstand the Witch King’s approach) should have faded some and also Earnur should seven years wiser as well as older. The answer could be that the Witch King has been working Earnur via the Palantir during these years. Is this roughly what you were suggesting Gordis?

[Gordis]

Excellent post, CAB.

Very good points about Denethor and that Aragorn probably was showing his heirlooms to the Stone as much as to Sauron.

Concerning Earnur, you read my thoughts. That was exactly what I wanted to suggest.

Originally Posted by CAB

Sauron was able to direct what Denethor was able to see through the Palantir, letting him see only signs of doom and causing Denethor to lose all hope. I doubt the Witch King could choose what Earnur would see (and what would he have to show Earnur anyway that would cause him to think the end was near?) however the Ithil stone and Anor stone were in close accord for communication.

I agree. I don't think the WK could affect what Earnur would see, or could dominate his will directly:

It was only Sauron who used a Stone for the transference of his superior will, dominating the weaker surveyor and forcing him to reveal hidden thought and to submit to commands. -UT: The Palantiri

But indeed, as you say, daily verbal taunting would be enough to drive Earnur mad with anger. Something along the lines:
"Morning, little coward! Yet a day older, are you? Soon you will be unable to mount a horse, provided you could find one which can withstand my presence..."
Seven years of that, and then the repeated public challenge, - and Earnur rides to Minas Morgul practically alone. Were he not mad, he would have taken an army with him.

Also the Witch-King might have shown Earnur some disturbing things in Minas Morgul: Earnur's old friends tortured or killed, or turned into wraiths. It will be similar to the psychological impact of the severed heads that the Witch-King ordered to be flung over the wall of Minas Tirith 1000 years later.

[CAB]

That is a pretty good taunt Gordis, but I had something like this in mind.

“The prophesy says that no living man can defeat me. That doesn’t disqualify YOU though, now does it?”

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

“The prophesy says that no living man can defeat me. That doesn’t disqualify YOU though, now does it?”

That is a killer!

[Valandil]

Gordis: is this partially inspired by my fanfic account of The Tower of Amon Sul?

Maybe I SHOULD post that here at Entmoot...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There is a thing that always bugs me in the Palantiri canon.

How can a stone know that it is being used by a rightful owner or not? As if it had gene/blood detector in it...
It necessitates the level of sentience that only the One Ring possessed. Or is it more like that: the rightful owner or his deputy feels more confidant when using a Stone, than an impostor?

I don't think the stone "knows" - but I think something in it is perhaps "attuned" to the rightful owner - just from the fact that it was a special item bestowed as a great gift.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I don't think the stone "knows" - but I think something in it is perhaps "attuned" to the rightful owner - just from the fact that it was a special item bestowed as a great gift.

Well, it is semantics. Still the stone can recognize the rightful owner... I like CAB's idea that it was wise for Aragorn to show his credentials to the stone.

Originally Posted by Valandil

Gordis: is this partially inspired by my fanfic account of The Tower of Amon Sul?

Maybe I SHOULD post that here at Entmoot...

You definitely should!

It is more related to your Firiel's letters, though. I used parts of my notes about this fic when replying to the question about Fornost battle.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

One important thing to remeber is that even Sauron could only chose what the other viewer sae and manipulate it, even could not force the Stones to lie.

And Val, you definitly should post that fanfic here, after the Letters of Firiel, we longingly await a sequel!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

One important thing to remeber is that even Sauron could only chose what the other viewer sae and manipulate it, even could not force the Stones to lie

That is correct, but nobody suggested that the WK made the stone lie...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

True, but this was the quote I was referring to.

Originally Posted by CAB

One interesting parallel between just the Rings and Palantiri is Sauron’s ability to use them to corrupt and / or dominate other users

The Palantiri could not be used to corrupt others in anyway better than a face to face talk could, if anything they could be worse as you can lie in a face to face conversation.

[Gordis]

Same with Elven Rings (the Three). One is not corrupted by it - but one is corrupted via it, if it is worn while Sauron has the One.

By the way, now that I think on it, perhaps it is true for the other rings as well (7 and 9). Nazgul became corrupted in the Second Age, because Sauron had the One. Perhaps, had someone got a nazgul Ring in the Third age, he would fade and become a wraith, but remain a good guy.

It doesn't apply to the One, as it contained Sauron's will and was evil by itself.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

One important thing to remeber is that even Sauron could only chose what the other viewer sae and manipulate it, even could not force the Stones to lie.

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

The Palantiri could not be used to corrupt others in anyway better than a face to face talk could, if anything they could be worse as you can lie in a face to face conversation.

Sauron did dominate Saruman and did corrupt Denethor via the Palantiri. This is plainly implied in the books. I never suggested he made the Stones show lies to do this, he didn’t have to. He had great forces gathered for the destruction of Gondor. He guided Denethor’s sight to these armies thus causing Denethor to assume that his defeat was inevitable.

The domination of Saruman probably didn’t require Sauron to show anything (except maybe himself). Look again at the quote Gordis took from Unfinished Tales.

It was only Sauron who used a Stone for the transference of his superior will, dominating the weaker surveyor and forcing him to reveal hidden thought and to submit to commands. -UT: The Palantiri

So I am not misunderstood, I believe this was a partial, not total, domination of Saruman’s will. Saruman was by no means completely loyal to Sauron.

As for the Palantiri being less effective for corruption than a face to face meeting, you are probably right, but I don’t see how this applies. Certainly neither Saruman or Denethor was foolish enough to personally meet with Sauron.

Concerning the inability of people to lie while using the Stones, I believe you are mistaken.

“The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dur can make them do so.” -The Return of the King

This indicates that the Palantiri themselves don’t lie. They don’t transmit images or (the equivalent of ) sounds that don’t actually exist (the Palantiri don't transmit actual sound.) What I mean is this: If Saruman and Denethor were conversing using the Stones, the evidence suggests that Saruman was fully capable of lying (verbally) to Denethor, but he couldn’t show him something that didn’t exist. Also Sauron would be unable to, for instance, alter the words Denethor “heard” Saruman saying. If there is a quote stating that users of the Palantiri were compelled to tell the truth, I am unaware of it. Actually I would suspect that Saruman lied to Sauron via the Palantiri quite regularly. He was a traitor to Sauron in addition to being a traitor to the Wise after all.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

:
:
And Val, you definitly should post that fanfic here, after the Letters of Firiel, we longingly await a sequel!

Have you seen my others? Links in sig...

I'm most fond of my "Visitors Come to Court"... which I just HAVE to get back onto! I have 3 chapters of a planned 7 posted. I've got the 4th mostly written. So I need to wrap that one up and then get on with the rest. Try it though, and tell me what you think.