Minas Tirith and Minas Morgul: twin cities?

[Gordis]

TWIN cities Minas Ithil and Minas Anor were built sometime after SA 3320:

As you know, that city was once a strong place, proud and fair, Minas Ithil, the twin sister of our own city.- LOTR, Book IV, Ch.6

What common features did Minas Morgul and Minas Ithil still share by the time of the War of the Ring?
What was added to each fortress and at what time? Could they still be considered twins?

Here are my thoughts on the subject.

Description of Minas Ithil:

Tales out of the South,' Gollum went on again, `about the tall Men with the shining eyes, and their houses like hills of stone, and the silver crown of their King and his White Tree: wonderful tales. They built very tall towers, and one they raised was silver-white, and in it there was a stone like the Moon, and round it were great white walls. O yes, there were many tales about the Tower of the Moon.'

Description of Minas Morgul:

A long-tilted valley, a deep gulf of shadow, ran back far into the mountains. Upon the further side, some way within the valley's arms high on a rocky seat upon the black knees of the Ephel Dúath, stood the walls and tower of Minas Morgul. All was dark about it, earth and sky, but it was lit with light. Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the marble walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing. In the walls and tower windows showed, like countless black holes looking inward into emptiness; but the topmost course of the tower revolved slowly, first one way and then another, a huge ghostly head leering into the night.
So they came slowly to the white bridge. Here the road, gleaming faintly, passed over the stream in the midst of the valley, and went on, winding deviously up towards the city's gate: a black mouth opening in the outer circle of the northward walls. [...] Across the narrow valley, now almost on a level with his eyes, the walls of the evil city stood, and its cavernous gate, shaped like an open mouth with gleaming teeth, was gaping wide..

So, Minas Morgul, still had the same tower built by Isildur (that is my impression from the quote above), with the addition of the revolving topmost course of the tower (made by the nazgul). Minas Morgul had several encircling walls. Note that the road leading to the Gates was "winding deviously up" The gate "with gleaming teeth" seems a later addition, from the times of the Ringwraiths.

Now let us look at Minas Tirith:

For the fashion of Minas Tirith was such that it was built on seven levels, each delved into the hill, and about each was set a wall, and in each wall was a gate. But the gates were not set in a line: the Great Gate in the City Wall was at the east point of the circuit, but the next faced half south, and the third half north, and so to and fro upwards; so that the paved way that climbed towards the Citadel turned first this way and then that across the face of the hill. [...]The entrance to the Citadel also looked eastward, but was delved in the heart of the rock; thence a long lamp-lit slope ran up to the seventh gate. Thus men reached at last the High Court, and the Place of the Fountain before the feet of the White Tower: tall and shapely, fifty fathoms from its base to the pinnacle, where the banner of the Stewards floated a thousand feet above the plain.

-Tower of Ecthelion
-7 encircling walls
-The road to the gates was not winding, it seems, but further on, beyond the gates it winded its way up, from one level to the next.

I suppose, the original fortresses of Minas Ithil and Minas Anor had only the citadel with the Tower and maybe one-two lower levels encircled by walls.

I think, as Minas Anor/Tirith grew, additional lower levels were progressively added until at last 7 levels were reached. The winding road leading to the Citadel, became enclosed within the walls, and the Great Gate of the outer wall became level with the surrounding fields. Basically the city now occupied all the hill. It seems that the outer wall, of the same material as the tower of Orthanc, was built long after the days of Anarion.

We know from the Tale of Years that the city was rebuilt in TA 420 by King Ostoher, The tower of Anarion was seemingly demolished and built anew in TA 1900 by King Calimehtar, and that tower was rebuilt in TA 2698 by Steward Ecthelion I.

Minas Ithil, because of its tumultuous history, never had so large a population as Minas Anor, so probably it always had only 2-3 levels, while the winding road leading to the Citadel was outside the city walls. Actually Minas Morgul remained closer to the original design than Minas Tirith.

What do you think on it?

Pauline Baynes
Artwork by Pauline Baynes, Tolkien's favorite illustrator and map-maker.
Here they are, side by side, and the fortresses are not unlike each other. I think, though, that Minas Morgul should be even higher up from the bridge. Minas Tirith is OK, but I think that the green lawns between the walls should be filled by houses.

[Valandil]

I almost think "twin palaces" might be a better description of how they started.

At its founding, Gondor was ruled by two Kings - the brothers Isildur ("Servant of the Moon" - I think the name translates) and Anarion (the "Anar" is Quenya for "sun" - the "ion" a masculine ending). Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon) and Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun) seem more like their separate palaces - because Osgiliath, in the middle, was their capital city and they ruled there side-by-side.

Isildur, of course, had to flee Minas Ithil in 3429 SA - when Sauron's forces invaded and took the place. Even though the Last Alliance won the subsequent war, I tend to think Minas Ithil was never the same again - and certainly Isildur's family never returned - he even intended to take up his father's throne in Arnor. So - I think it basically stayed unchanged - and used as pretty much a military outpost for as long as Gondor had it (what was that year - 2002 TA??). After that time, I suppose the Ringwraiths made their various "improvements".

Minas Anor, I believe, had a slow transition from royal palace to capitol city. It remained primarily the palace for Anarion's heirs for some time I'm sure - while they still ruled from Osgiliath. When Ostoher rebuilt the place in 420, we're told that the Kings began to dwell there in summer. So from that point, they split their time - presumably it was more comfortable there in summer, at higher ground, and away from the city. But even then, it wasn't until 1640 - 4 years after the Great Plague devastated the population of Osgiliath at that time, that King Tarondor (whose uncle, King Telemnar - died in the Plague with all his children) removed the King's House more permanently to Minas Anor. I think it was at this time that Minas Anor began to rapidly shift from being a palatial estate, to being a capitol city - as remnants of Osgiliath's population settled there, instead of returning to the city where so many had died of the plague.

Then - after 2002, when the Nazgul took Minas Ithil - it was known afterwards as Minas Morgul ("Tower of Sorcery") - and the city of Minas Anor was renamed Minas Tirith ("Tower of Guard").

[Rían]

aaacckkkk! Architecture and Politics!

*runs and hides*

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think, as Minas Anor/Tirith grew, additional lower levels were progressively added until at last 7 levels were reached. The winding road leading to the Citadel, became enclosed within the walls, and the Great Gate of the outer wall became level with the surrounding fields. Basically the city now occupied all the hill. It seems that the outer wall, of the same material as the tower of Orthanc, was built long after the days of Anarion.

Actually - I think the Numenorean exiles of early Gondor built both Aglarond (Helm's Deep at the Glittering Caves) and Angrenost (Orthanc). I would date the outermost ring of Minas Anor to the late Second Age - and think the rest was infilled over time (mostly after 1640 TA - but maybe some before). I think there may have been the ramp upward, which later became part of the city's streets - but what later becomes the city might otherwise have been mostly a grassy hill.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

... Minas Ithil (Tower of the Moon) and Minas Anor (Tower of the Sun) ...

Actually: "Tower of the Rising Moon" and "Tower of the Setting Sun" according to "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" essay (a GREAT resource!) in The Silmarillion.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Actually: "Tower of the Rising Moon" and "Tower of the Setting Sun" according to "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" essay (a GREAT resource!) in The Silmarillion.

Actually, "Ithil" means "Moon"; "Anor" means "Sun" and "Minas" means "Tower"
Where do you see "Rising" or "Setting"?

I know you have not misquoted though, there is this part in the Silm, I know- but still, where are those words?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Actually - I think the Numenorean exiles of early Gondor built both Aglarond (Helm's Deep at the Glittering Caves) and Angrenost (Orthanc). I would date the outermost ring of Minas Anor to the late Second Age - and think the rest was infilled over time (mostly after 1640 TA - but maybe some before). I think there may have been the ramp upward, which later became part of the city's streets - but what later becomes the city might otherwise have been mostly a grassy hill.

It is disproved by existence of the winding road leading to the Gates of Minas Morgul, while the Gates of M. Tirith are level with the ground.
That means, that M.Morgul has less levels than M. Tirith.

There was no way that Isildur's fortress had only 2-3 levels from the start, while Anarion's had full 7. They had to be alike originally. So - lower levels of Minas tirith should be more recent than the Citadel.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Actually, "Ithil" means "Moon"; "Anor" means "Sun" and "Minas" means "Tower"
Where do you see "Rising" or "Setting"?

I know you have not misquoted though, there is this part in the Silm, I know- but still, where are those words?

Yes - the words themselves would just denote "Tower of the Moon" and "Tower of the Sun" - however, the essay I mentioned, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" gives those fully names. They ("Rising" and "Setting") - may have just been implicit from their positions - east and west of Osgiliath.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

... They had to be alike originally...

Why so?

Besides - I don't know if it had the full seven levels - what if it was just a hill - maybe the "switchback" route through the shoulder of the mountain was there, maybe not. But - although I expect the rest of the walls, and all the infill streets and buildings came later - I could see the entire hill having been walled off from the start - by what later became the outermost ring, at the bottom.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

aaacckkkk! Architecture and Politics!

*runs and hides*

Better than angsty Elfy First Age love!

Welcome to the Age of Men: Architecture, Politics, Agriculture, Economics, etc, etc...

[CAB]

I don’t think the two cities ever looked exactly alike. The two trees looked different from each other and so do the sun and moon. “Twin� probably refers more to their: time of construction, location in regards to Osgiliath, strength and size, position on mountainsides, and inhabitants (Isildur and Anarion). They probably looked similar but not the same.

The winding road in Minas Anor goes back and forth through a “towering bastion of stone� which split the city in two. If the outer levels and walls were added later, then in earlier times the road to the gate zig-zagged through a (mostly) natural stone wall for no real reason. The winding road to Minas Ithil on the other hand seems to be over open ground. Also, I don’t think we should place too much importance on curving roads because roads in mountainous regions tend to be winding. It isn’t easy to go straight up a mountain.

Just because Minas Anor had more levels than Minas Ithil doesn’t have to mean it was bigger or stronger, it was simply more divided, probably due to differences in terrain. The growing population of Minas Anor in the middle of the Third Age could explain the numerous levels but I think it is more likely that the city simply became denser rather than spreading out.

I also wonder if the people of Gondor were capable of building the great wall of Minas Tirith in the latter half of the Third Age. It was of the same quality as Orthanc yet the Dunedains’ “arts� would have declined quite a bit by this time.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I don’t think the two cities ever looked exactly alike. The two trees looked different from each other and so do the sun and moon. “Twin� probably refers more to their: time of construction, location in regards to Osgiliath, strength and size, position on mountainsides, and inhabitants (Isildur and Anarion). They probably looked similar but not the same.

Not the same, but similar - OK. Then why didn't Minas Ithil have this outer unbreakable wall, which, as you say, Minas Anor had from the start? Surely, Ithil's position on the very border of Mordor was more dangerous! It needed the wall more.

The winding road in Minas Anor goes back and forth through a “towering bastion of stone� which split the city in two. If the outer levels and walls were added later, then in earlier times the road to the gate zig-zagged through a (mostly) natural stone wall for no real reason.

As you say yourself, "roads in mountainous regions tend to be winding. It isn’t easy to go straight up a mountain". If there happened to be an outcrop of stone, cutting the hillside in two, there was no other way than to make the road ziz-zag through it. It had to be traced this way with or without the outer wall.

I also wonder if the people of Gondor were capable of building the great wall of Minas Tirith in the latter half of the Third Age. It was of the same quality as Orthanc yet the Dunedains’ “arts� would have declined quite a bit by this time.

Probably it were built in the first half of the Third Age, at the time of Gondor's might. Perhaps it was made as early as TA 420 by King Ostoher, who rebuilt the city, perhaps somewhat later. Likely, the capture of Minas Ithil (the first one) prompted the building of the outer wall. I only wanted to say, that it was not a part of the original structure dating from Anarion.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not the same, but similar - OK. Then why didn't Minas Ithil have this outer unbreakable wall, which, as you say, Minas Anor had from the start? Surely, Ithil's position on the very border of Mordor was more dangerous! It needed the wall more.

I don’t know a great deal about this subject, but are you sure that it didn’t have such a wall? I don’t recall reading anything to indicate that it lacked a great, equally unbreakable, outer wall.

Originally Posted by Gordis

As you say yourself, "roads in mountainous regions tend to be winding. It isn’t easy to go straight up a mountain". If there happened to be an outcrop of stone, cutting the hillside in two, there was no other way than to make the road ziz-zag through it. It had to be traced this way with or without the outer wall.

It would seem to me that the thing to do would be to have the road on only one side of the outcrop. There should have been plenty of room on one side or the other for a zig-zag style road.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Probably it were built in the first half of the Third Age, at the time of Gondor's might. Perhaps it was made as early as TA 420 by King Ostoher, who rebuilt the city, perhaps somewhat later. Likely, the capture of Minas Ithil (the first one) prompted the building of the outer wall. I only wanted to say, that it was not a part of the original structure dating from Anarion.

I would agree that this is possible.

I like your idea Gordis that as Minas Anor grew it took in a road the same as one still outside it’s identical twin city, but I can’t agree with it. The great stone bastion was a defining feature of Minas Anor. How could Minas Ithil be identical when it (apparently) lacked this outcrop?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I don’t know a great deal about this subject, but are you sure that it didn’t have such a wall? I don’t recall reading anything to indicate that it lacked a great, equally unbreakable, outer wall.

There is no description of a DARK outer wall in M.Morgul - it is all white and luminous. Moreover, Faramir mentioned the "RUINED" walls of M.Morgul. Perhaps ruined in the siege of 200-2002? I guess the outer wall of M.Tirith was unbreakable.

It would seem to me that the thing to do would be to have the road on only one side of the outcrop. There should have been plenty of room on one side or the other for a zig-zag style road.

You forget about SYMMETRY !
They could have had two parts of M.Tirith, starting from the Third Circle, (Level 3A-Level 3B )but they have chosen to make numerous tunnels. Architectural pride, I guess.


I agree that because of the outcrop the cities were not identical.

[CAB]

Gordis, I hate to disagree with you again. I don’t like to seem argumentative. But I have to on this point. I hope you don’t hold it against me.

Originally Posted by Gordis

There is no description of a DARK outer wall in M.Morgul - it is all white and luminous. Moreover, Faramir mentioned the "RUINED" walls of M.Morgul. Perhaps ruined in the siege of 200-2002? I guess the outer wall of M.Tirith was unbreakable.

Is the color of the wall really that important? I was of the opinion that the strength of Orthanc’s and Minas Tirith’s walls was due more to sorcery than the material used. Also, I believe that there are stones that are essentially the same in every regard except color. Isn’t there black marble and white marble? As for Minas Morgul’s ruined walls, these don’t have to be the outer walls do they? There must have been many interior walls (by interior walls I mean all walls within the great outer wall) visible from outside Minas Morgul. They are more likely to be “destructible� just like the interior walls of Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by Gordis

You forget about SYMMETRY !
They could have had two parts of M.Tirith, starting from the Third Circle, (Level 3A-Level 3B )but they have chosen to make numerous tunnels. Architectural pride, I guess.

Actually, symmetry is one of my main problems with the idea that Minas Anor didn’t originally extend beyond the great stone outcrop. The main gate of Minas Tirith as we know it is directly in line with this outcrop. If Minas Anor wasn’t this large at first then the main gate was probably either on one side of the outcrop or the other. The other (to me even less likely) option was that the gate was actually delved into and covered by the stone outcrop. This would maintain symmetry but would mean that the main gate was essentially in a cave. Not a very majestic entrance to a great city.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Gordis, I hate to disagree with you again. I don’t like to seem argumentative. But I have to on this point. I hope you don’t hold it against me.

Never! Feel free to disagree as much as you like! What really upsets me is when there are no replies to my postings. Thank you for the discussion.

Is the color of the wall really that important? I was of the opinion that the strength of Orthanc’s and Minas Tirith’s walls was due more to sorcery than the material used. Also, I believe that there are stones that are essentially the same in every regard except color. Isn’t there black marble and white marble?

There was a long animated discussion whether the outher wall of M.Tirith was dark. It was, it seems, though I fully agree that "there are stones that are essentially the same in every regard except color" and that there might have been some sorcery involved.

As for Minas Morgul’s ruined walls, these don’t have to be the outer walls do they?

OK

Actually, symmetry is one of my main problems with the idea that Minas Anor didn’t originally extend beyond the great stone outcrop. The main gate of Minas Tirith as we know it is directly in line with this outcrop. If Minas Anor wasn’t this large at first then the main gate was probably either on one side of the outcrop or the other. The other (to me even less likely) option was that the gate was actually delved into and covered by the stone outcrop. This would maintain symmetry but would mean that the main gate was essentially in a cave. Not a very majestic entrance to a great city.

That is a very clever observation I have not thought about.