The nine, in Saurons abcence

[Vidugavia]

After lurking for quite a while, I've decided to create a thread about a question I fear have no real answer in Tolkiens writings.

What did the nazgul do during and after Saurons defeat by the last alliance?

They first appeared around S.A. 2251. At Saurons fall they "go into the shadows". 1050 Sauron begins to take new form and 1300 the nazgul goes more or less public again and founds Angmar.

Does "go into the shadows" mean that they were rendered "empty and shapeless" like Gandalf hoped they were at the ford of Bruinen? If so, what happened to their rings when they were disembodied at Saurons fall? Did Elendil, Gil-galad & Co defeat and temporarily shatter any nazgul before fighting Sauron? As Saurons most powerful servants at least some of the nazgul must have fought the last alliance. Was their passing "into the shadows" exclusively a result of Saurons personal defeat or were they also temporarily "slain"? Did at least some of the nazgul loose their rings at the end of the second age?

How fast did they heal and regroup? Were they guided by Saurons all the time? Could they communicate with him before 1050?

So many questions that probably lacks answers but I encourage creative speculation.

[Valandil]

Vidugavia, Welcome to Entmoot!

Nice thread. I think once everyone wakes up, we'll get some good discussion on it. I'd contribute a little right now, but I need to get to bed.

We've even done a little bit of RP fanfic on the topic around here!

[Alcuin]

Amen to Valandil: welcome, Vidugavia, and good question.

Gordis has a highly evolved theory on this subject: Nazgûl are her especial, favorite topic.

[Noble Elf Lord]

On rings: I don't think they could lose them. The more propable explanation is that they were magically bound on their fingers, impossible to be removed. Other one I can think of is that once Sauron had them under his control - so much that if he told them to jump into Mt. Doom, they would - he ordered the Nine to NEVER remove them. So they'd be doomed to forever bear them, whether they were magically bound or not, with no way out of Sauron's dominion.

On "go into shadows": I think that they merely lost their form in the world of light. But alas, Sauron still alive, they could recover. Possibly because: While Sauron's power and life was bound on the One, the power of the Nine rings was rather bound on the Nine Nazgûl.

Those 9 Rings were certainly corrupted, but I don't believe they had a will of their own. Nazgûl cannot exist (as Nazgûl) without their Rings on hand, while Sauron can. IF the 9 Rings had been somehow destroyed/removed before the Nazgûl had worn them for long, I guess they had been almost normal, though weary people. Whereas Sauron was destroyed with the One.
Opinions?

[Gordis]

Thank you for directing me to this thread, Alcuin, but as long as I am far from home and away from my books, I can only rely on memory.

Wht you say is all very nice and logical, NEL, but unfortunately, it is contradicted by Tolkien's own writings.
At the time of the War or the Ring, the nazgul didn't wear their Rings, it was Sauron who held them (See Unfinished Tales, Hunt for the Ring). That was how he controlled the nazgul, without the Ruling Ring.

Nazgul in LOR wear no rings. That is why nazgul clothing is visible. That is why when nazgul wish to go around invisible, they have to remove their garments and go unclad. If they had their rings, they would have been invisible: clothes and all, much like Frodo wearing the Ring.

As for the original question, again the answer lies in UT, this time a note (was it No 21? or maybe 12?) to the "Disaster of the Gladden Fields". The Ringwraiths had retreated East with the remnants of orcs from Barad-Dur. I take it they were more or less hale and sound when they retreated into shadows - likely put on their Rings and went into the Shadow-world, becoming invisible.

The Nine rings they likely still had in their possession, so the fact that the One changed hands didn't effect them: they were always bound to the Nine rings and only secondarily to the One.

Likely they simply stayed somewhere in the East or South before TA 1300 when the WK founded Angmar.

I hope that helps.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

:
:
Likely they simply stayed somewhere in the East or South before TA 1300 when the WK founded Angmar.
:
:

Although some have speculated on a brief stay at Tharbad.

[Butterbeer]

Well, me and mine checked the records..and can confirm they definately didn't stay at The Pony!

That narrows it down somewhat.
Hope it helps

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Well, me and mine checked the records..and can confirm they definately didn't stay at The Pony!

Well, Frodo was registered as Mr. Underhill. Perhaps there might be a couple of other guests with appropriately chosen surnames: Mr. Grimm and Mr. Reeper? Mr. Phobos and Mr. Deimos? Mssrs. Nex and Exitium, Esq.? (Maybe that last should be, “Mssrs. Lex et Nex, Esq.”?)

[Gordis]

The nine, in Sauron's absence ...HAD A VERY GOOD TIME!

[Jon S.]

After the One's demise, the bearers of the Three lost their Ring-associated powers, right? So wouldn't the Nine rings also have lost their powers, and by extension, the Nazgul lost theirs? If so, the Nazgul would no longer have a way to sustain their spirits in this world and would be expected to essentially die, either on the spot or after concluding their now-resumed natural lifespan?

“Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last.” [Silm: Rings (287)]

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

After the One's demise, the bearers of the Three lost their Ring-associated powers, right? So wouldn't the Nine rings also have lost their powers, and by extension, the Nazgul lost theirs? If so, the Nazgul would no longer have a way to sustain their spirits in this world and would be expected to essentially die, either on the spot or after concluding their now-resumed natural lifespan?[Silm: Rings (287)]

The remaining eight Nazgûl were consumed in the ruin of Orodruin, were they not?

…with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.

Mmm… Black Rider barbeque.

Extra sauce, anyone?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think this thread's OP was talking about after the Last Alliance and before Sauron rose again to power toward the end of the Third Age.

[Jon S.]

By jove, you're right!

[Gordis]

er... what was I saying...no matter.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But they did - here is the evidence: D
http://allor.ramot.ru/images/humor/ponchik.jpg
(At the "Prancing Pony" -picture by Allor)

DON'T OPEN THIS SITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But they did - here is the evidence: D
http://allor.ramot.ru/images/humor/ponchik.jpg
(At the "Prancing Pony" -picture by Allor)

WARNING (and I'm NOT joking): do NOT go to that site.

Reported Attack Site!













This web site at allor.ramot.ru has been reported as an attack site and has been blocked based on your security preferences.










Attack sites try to install programs that steal private information, use your computer to attack others, or damage your system.

Some attack sites intentionally distribute harmful software, but many are compromised without the knowledge or permission of their owners.

[Gordis]

I have absolutely no problems opening this site - on any of the computers I use...

[Noble Elf Lord]

Yet. Others: DO NOT OPEN IT. I have troubles opening the internet on my Mom's com, but fortunately I have my laptop.

[Gordis]

OK, if you say so, then I delete the reference, believing your warnings.

You better do likewise - instead of repeating the url, btw!

[Alcuin]

Well, at least we know what some of the Nazgûl are doing these days: running websites in Russia with neat and amusing drawings of (almost-) events from Tolkien literature that surreptitiously load malicious software onto the computers of unsuspecting folks cruising over from Entmoot.

(FWIW, I didn’t have a problem with the website, either.)