Emblem of Minas Morgul

[Valandil]

As seen by Samwise Gamgee, at the beginning of Book VI of LOTR, the livery of Minas Morgul was:

"...a Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death..."

It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

They did because they found the Moon appropriate. Also - are you sure it were the nazgul who changed the name of the fortress, not the Gondorians?

Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul.

For all we know, the nazgul could have continued to call it "M.Ithil" for a long time...

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Valandil

As seen by Samwise Gamgee, at the beginning of Book VI of LOTR, the livery of Minas Morgul was:



It has only just occured to me - that Minas Morgul - which used to be Minas Ithil - the Tower of the (Rising) Moon - makes use of a Moon in its emblem, and that's what the previous name of the Tower signified.

So - rather than simply discard the old symbols, they (the new management = the Nazgul) might possibly have just modified them.

Hey that's a keen observation! It does make sense.

[Gordis]

But what was the question, Val?

[Valandil]

Oh - this wasn't really a question thread - just an observation thread.

Also - I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul or their associates changed the name - or that they called it "Minas Morgul" themselves (maybe we'd solve that with a little digging, but I'm not inclined right now). But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place!

And there were HUGE renovations that the lax Gondorian government never attempted in two thousand years: new Gate (exquisitely shaped like a grinning mouth), new revolving upper tier of the Tower (wow- a marvel) with a spectacular view on the white meadows of the Morgul Vale and surrounding mountains. Perhaps the nazgul kept a restaurant there.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Oh - this wasn't really a question thread - just an observation thread.

Also - I didn't mean to imply that the Nazgul or their associates changed the name - or that they called it "Minas Morgul" themselves (maybe we'd solve that with a little digging, but I'm not inclined right now). But there WAS most definitely a changeover in the management of the place!

The borrowed moon-theory makes even more sense if you think about the nature of Mordor culture: it does create and innovate new things, it simply twists and changes them in its own dark way.

So you wouldn't expect the mangled moon symbol of Minas Morgul to be an original invention of the Nazgûl inspired by some lunar affinity, but an adoption of something already present in former Minas Ithil yet which became twisted to due to decaying and dark nature of Mordor=)

So is there a date for when Minas Ithil ceased being referred to as M. Ithil and instead Minas Morgul?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

So is there a date for when Minas Ithil ceased being referred to as M. Ithil and instead Minas Morgul?

Sometime after TA 2002 but before 2043, most likely straight away after the city was captured. Here are the quotes:

Elrond: And on a time evil things came forth, and they took Minas Ithil and abode in it, and they made it into a place of dread; and it is called Minas Morgul, the Tower of Sorcery. Then Minas Anor was named anew Minas Tirith, the Tower of Guard -"Council of Elrond"

Gandalf: for [Sauron] took Minas Ithil long ago and turned it into an evil place: Minas Morgul, it has become.-"The Palantir"

2002 Fall of Minas Ithil, afterwards known as Minas Morgul. - "Tale of Years"

Minas Ithil [the nazgul] took in 2002, and captured the palantÃ*r of the tower. They were not expelled while the Third Age lasted; and Minas Ithil became a place of fear, and was renamed Minas Morgul. -"App. A"

When Eärnur received the crown in 2043 the King of Minas Morgul challenged him to single combat- "App A"

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And there were HUGE renovations...: new Gate..., new revolving upper tier of the Tower (wow- a marvel) with a spectacular view on the white meadows of the Morgul Vale and surrounding mountains. Perhaps the nazgul kept a restaurant there.

What do you suppose they served for the Blue Plate Special?

The idea of riding up a glass elevator inside the Tower... like in a Hyatt...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

What do you suppose they served for the Blue Plate Special?

The idea of riding up a glass elevator inside the Tower... like in a Hyatt...

If you look for a glass elevator anywhere in ME, the best chance to find it would be in Minas Morgul.

[GrayMouser]

Yeah, wonder which side changed the name, and how did it come to be adopted by both?

[Rían]

Did they print up new notepaper, or just cross out the old name and write in the new one?

[Attalus]

I suspect that "Minas Morgul" was applied from both sides. "Tower of Sorcery" would be applicable to each.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Seems to me it's a name given to it by Gondor and/or the Elves. The fact that they still used the moon as their symbol indicates that WiKi and his gang may well have continued to call it the Tower of the Moon.

[Coffeehouse]

True. Maybe, just maybe the Witch-King and the rest of Minas Morgul, being so corrupted by darkness and encapsulated in its shady haziness actually believed that the symbol they were using was the same symbol of the Tower of the Moon, a moon. Perhaps they were unable to see that it too had become mangled and twisted by their own evil nature. A psychological demented state

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

True. Maybe, just maybe the Witch-King and the rest of Minas Morgul, being so corrupted by darkness and encapsulated in its shady haziness actually believed that the symbol they were using was the same symbol of the Tower of the Moon, a moon. Perhaps they were unable to see that it too had become mangled and twisted by their own evil nature. A psychological demented state

There is nothing demented about the nazgul. They did use the symbol of the Moon but deliberately modified it. Now it is the "Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death."

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There is nothing demented about the nazgul. They did use the symbol of the Moon but deliberately modified it. Now it is the "Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death."

Well they certainly do have a progressive condition of deteriorated cognitive functions with telling signs of emotional apathy. I.e. dementia

And we don't really know if they knew they were mangling the moon's face, or if it's sort of happened, beneath the radar of their darkened minds.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Well they certainly do have a progressive condition of deteriorated cognitive functions with telling signs of emotional apathy. I.e. dementia

And we don't really know if they knew they were mangling the moon's face, or if it's sort of happened, beneath the radar of their darkened minds.

You have no base for your diagnosis, dear Doctor. Especially where do you see "emotional aphaty"?
I guess the sigil of the disfigured moon was very artistic, transforming the silly plain face of the full moon into something frightening.

[Coffeehouse]

Doctor indeed Symptoms: In the hunt for the ring the Nazgûl display a series of actions that would suggest some seriously reduced cognitive functions. In the course of their hunt there are symptoms of: a lack of commitment in crucial situations, terrible decision-making, poor tactical execution and reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight.

The Nazgûl also seem to have long-term strains such apathy to emotional and physical well-being and a lack of interest all-together in physical things (excepting the Ring)

I wouldn't count on much artistic creativity in their sad state. The poor Nazgûl may have simply thought they were making nice reproductions of the Tower of the Moon banners. Instead when they were sitting huddled in a dimly lit room in their confused state of mind and drawing on each otheir banner (which the Witch-King had bartered for in a tax-free shop down in Harad) the delusional and malicious influences of the Dark Lord Sauron coerced their minds and instead they sub-conciously drew mangled faces on their pretty moons

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Doctor indeed Symptoms: In the hunt for the ring the Nazgûl display a series of actions that would suggest some seriously reduced cognitive functions. In the course of their hunt there are symptoms of: a lack of commitment in crucial situations, terrible decision-making, poor tactical execution and reduced cognitive abilities in sunlight.

The Nazgûl also seem to have long-term strains such apathy to emotional and physical well-being and a lack of interest all-together in physical things (excepting the Ring)

QFT. I doubt that enough remained of freedom and humanity in the Nazgul for any artistic endeavor. The "Stained Moon" emblem could just as well be the work of a Black Numenorean.