Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > Lord of the Rings Books
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-10-2009, 12:10 AM   #1
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Why did the Nazgûl drop Merry in Bree?

Prodded by a post in the thread “Emblem of Minas Morgul”, I want to frame and pose a question that has long troubled me.

It certainly appears that at least one, if not both, of the men trying to kidnap Merry in the east end of Bree was a Ringwraith. The scene first appears, as far as I know, in Return of the Shadow, and begins with Merry bursting into the sitting-room at the Prancing Pony with Trotter (later Strider) and Bingo (later Frodo) discussing Barnabas Butterbur (later Barliman, and at this point a hobbit) and Gandalf’s letter to Bingo (Frodo), which Butterbur has just delivered. Merry enters and declares that he has seen a Black Rider in Bree. He followed the Rider and his horse to the east end of the village, “heard him speaking, or whispering, to someone on the other side” of a dark hedge. Then Merry “came over all queer and trembling suddenly, and bolted back.” (All from the chapter, “Trotter and the Journey to Weathertop”) Merry has not fainted. There is no Nob, there is not yet a gatekeeper or a West Gate. It seems that the Ringwraith was speaking to Bill Ferny, but perhaps there was another Rider on the other side of the hedge.

Later in the chapter “To Weathertop and Rivendell” (still in Return of the Shadow), CJR Tolkien notes that
Quote:
Merry’s story of the Black Rider whom he saw outside the inn and followed differ in … that whereas in the original version … the Rider went though the village from west to east and stopped at Bill Ferny’s house (hole), here
and CJR Tolkien begins to cite the draft narrative,
Quote:
‘He was coming from the east,’ Merry went on. ‘I followed him down the Road almost to the gate. He stopped at the keeper’s house, and I thought heard him talking to someone. I tried to creep near… I am afraid I suddenly began to shiver and shake, and bolted back here.’
In this case, the Rider may be speaking to Harry the Gatekeeper, who has now appeared in the story as a character suborned by the Nazgûl.

In Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark”, notes for p 177 (I:189), Hammond and Scull cite Tolkien’s notes on the event for the finalized form of the book:
Quote:
…three Black Riders who had been sent to Weathertop and told to ride back along the Road
Quote:
reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events in the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-king]. . . . [He] is waylaid by the Dúnedain and driven away does not reach [the Witch-king] until the next day . . . . [The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night. . . . The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn.
(All the elisions and editorial parentheticals in this citation are as cited from Hammond and Scull in Reader’s Companion. There is more to their citation after that, but nothing elided by me in this passage. By the way, “Marquette MSS 4/2/36” does not indicate that the papers were composed in 1936, before the publication of the The Hobbit. The numbers have something to do with how Marquette University numbered the boxes and documents they purchased from Tolkien. “MSS” is an abbreviation for “manuscripts”. This manuscript is part of Tolkien’s nearly finished work on the time scheme for the movements of the Black Riders.)

Now, in the text as it stands, in Fellowship of the Ring, near the end of the chapter “Strider”, Merry bursts into the room “followed by Nob.” He was standing “just outside the light of the lamp”, presumably the lamp in front of the Inn, when he saw the Ringwraith across the road in the shadows. “There was no horse.” Merry followed to the east end of town to the last house on the road, Bill Ferny’s. He continued on. Then
Quote:
”I seemed to be drawn… I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering, and the other was whispering, or hissing… I began to tremble all over. … I was just going to bolt home, when something came behind me, and I . . . I fell over.”

“I found him, sir,” put in Nob. “… Just nigh Bill Ferny’s house, I thought I could see something in the Road. … it looked to me as if two men was stooping over something, lifting it. I gave a shout, but when I got to the spot there was no sign of them, only Mr. Brandybuck lying by the roadside.”
Why in the world did the two Nazgûl leave Merry by the roadside and not shanghai him off to the Witch-king, or at least to the woods outside town to wring all he knew out of him? It might not have been the same as catching Frodo, but it would have been a tremendous coup to get one of his companions. Then they attack the Inn without success. (Who are these two Ringwraiths, Frick and Frack?)

And kudos to the Dúnedain who waylaid the messenger sent to the Witch-king. They could not stand all Nine at Sarn Ford, but they seemed to have redeemed themselves in preventing the messenger from arriving in a timely fashion, which might have proven fatal.

I apologize for the length of this starter. But I want to establish two things:
  1. It was definitely Black Riders who were trying to kidnap Merry, but dropped him.
  2. It was definitely Black Riders – moreover, the same two – who attacked the Inn and ruined Mr. Butterbur’s good bolsters.
Why did they drop Merry? That really bothers me. They couldn’t possibly have been scared of Nob, and it’s not as if he’d have been able to stop them. They were near the edge of the village: did they expect the whole town to come out after them? And even if they had, couldn’t two Nazgûl scare the willies out of a bunch of Breefolk in the dark and sent them scampering back into town while they made off with their catch?

-|-
Added (much) later. No other changes to this post except this addition.

Since starting this thread, I have discovered that “Marquette MSS 4/2/36” stands for “Marquette manuscripts series 4, box 2, folder 36”.

Last edited by Alcuin : 02-10-2009 at 07:10 PM. Reason: explaining the abbreviation “Marquette MSS 4/2/36”
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 12:45 AM   #2
Valandil
High King at Annuminas Administrator
 
Valandil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
From what I recall, Ringwraiths don't see very well.

Is it possible that they thought Merry was just some ole Bree-hobbit?
__________________
My Fanfic:
Letters of Firiel

Tales of Nolduryon
Visitors Come to Court

Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™

[Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl]


Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!!
Valandil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 02:03 AM   #3
Olmer
Elf Lord
 
Olmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
Theirs agenda was to keep them going in the designated direction, otherwise they wouldn't play "hide-and-seek" in the woods with unarmed hobbits.
So, as it have been done before, they just scared them not to get too cozy in Bree and hit the road sooner.
Olmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 04:43 AM   #4
CAB
Elven Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valandil View Post
Is it possible that they thought Merry was just some ole Bree-hobbit?
My question also.
CAB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 09:10 AM   #5
Gordis
Lady of the Ulairi
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
Merry got caught by the east gate of Bree, far-far from the Prancing Pony. He was not the only hobbit in Bree, not even one of the four hobbits in Bree - there were lots and lots of them, hundreds or more, all alike. Merry was caught far from the Inn, he had no Ring - why would the nazgul deem keeping and questioning him important? There was nothing to link Merry to the Ringbearer.

Moreover, at the moment, the nazgul were trying very hard not to cause any commotion, because at the very same time, Bill and the Southerner were telling them something very important: the story about a hobbit disappearing into thin air in the common room of the Pony.

taken from here
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 09:43 AM   #6
The Dread Pirate Roberts
Elf Lord
 
The Dread Pirate Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
I agree with Gordis. And I disagree that both premises in the OP are certain:
Quote:
1. It was definitely Black Riders who were trying to kidnap Merry, but dropped him.
2. It was definitely Black Riders – moreover, the same two – who attacked the Inn and ruined Mr. Butterbur’s good bolsters.
As for 1, I think it is unlikely a kidnapping was in progress, at least not in the traditional sense. They may have been wanting to carry him off until he woke up, just to find out from him how much he heard while spying on them.

And for 2, the quote you produce from Tolkien's notes is compelling. I had long thought the Inn was attacked by Nazgul until reading a discussion on another board that seemed to prove otherwise. I don't remember the reasoning or evidence but I remember being convinced that the Nazgul planned and sponsored the attack but were more likely waiting outside when the bolsters were ruined by men in their service. Now I'm just confused. I guess if you change the "definitely" to "probably" then I'm right there with you.
__________________
~The DPR
"Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."
The Dread Pirate Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 02:31 PM   #7
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Just to be clear, the Marquette manuscripts are important because they are the documents Tolkien was using to track the Nazgûl and their movements as he was completing The Lord of the Rings. I have read the referenced post, and while it is a point that anyone can debate as long as they like, I think that the evidence is clear: the characters who trashed the hobbits’ room at the Prancing Pony were the two Nazgûl. That is explicitly what is in Tolkien’s notes (the source for the essay “Hunt for the Ring”), and there is no evidence to the contrary. “The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn.” They went to the Inn to get the Ring, they searched the room when they didn’t find anybody there, and then they trashed it out of frustration.

“[The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry” is just as explicit. The two men lifting Merry are Nazgûl.

Look, these are the notes on the Ringwraiths’ movements that Tolkien used to write the final text. That’s why they’re important. That’s why they’re cited extensively in Reader’s Companion.

So, why did the Nazgûl drop Merry? To flush the hobbits out of town? Maybe, but that doesn’t seem a very good method: they might decide that with ruffians – or Ringwraiths – about, it’s safer in town than on the Road, so that doesn’t seem like a very good plan. Because there are lots of hobbits in Bree, and this one might just be one of the hundreds that lived there? Come on, the Ringwraith saw him walk out of the Inn, knows he followed him down the street, and then Merry says he “seemed to be drawn” – he was “lured” to continue to investigate, in some way felt compelled to approach the Nazgûl at the hedge. (Was the mumbling a spell of some sort?) They meant to grab him. Why did they let him go?
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 03:21 PM   #8
Gordis
Lady of the Ulairi
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
“[The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry” is just as explicit. The two men lifting Merry are Nazgûl.
Of course they are, at least one of them: it is clear from the LOTR text itself where Merry's reaction is described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
So, why did the Nazgûl drop Merry?
They have just heard that the Ring certainly was in the Pony half an hour ago and got the description of the Ringbearer. It was not the right moment to kidnap other hobbits who might prove to be totally unrelated to the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
Because there are lots of hobbits in Bree, and this one might just be one of the hundreds that lived there? Come on, the Ringwraith saw him walk out of the Inn, knows he followed him down the street,
The Ringwraith couldn't see Merry walk out of the Inn, because he didn't walk out of it. Instead he came towards the inn:
Quote:
I stayed indoors for an hour. Then as you did not come back, I went out for a stroll. I had come back again and was standing just outside the light of the lamp looking at the stars. Suddenly I shivered and felt that something horrible was creeping near:
Quote:
and then Merry says he “seemed to be drawn” – he was “lured” to continue to investigate, in some way felt compelled to approach the Nazgûl at the hedge. (Was the mumbling a spell of some sort?) They meant to grab him. Why did they let him go?
I don't think the nazgul lured Merry to follow him. Maybe he did, but maybe Merry was just being inquisitive. It reminds me how Frodo walked in a daze towards Minas Morgul...
All things nazgul are most attractive.
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 03:49 PM   #9
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
They have just heard that the Ring certainly was in the Pony half an hour ago and got the description of the Ringbearer. It was not the right moment to kidnap other hobbits who might prove to be totally unrelated to the matter.
...
The Ringwraith couldn't see Merry walk out of the Inn, because he didn't walk out of it. Instead he came towards the inn:
I cannot disagree. It’s just a very weak excuse, and worse, it’s an excuse, not a good reason, at least for the Nazgûl. After all, these are Nazgûl, and not likely to be too particular about who they torture or maim or kill, so torturing, maiming, or killing some local hobbit “by accident” wouldn’t phase them at all, I don’t expect. And it probably wouldn’t come to that for most people they’d encountered over their long careers as bogeys: most people would just spill the beans out of sheer terror, like the Isengard spy, the sallow-faced, squint-eyed southerner that the Witch-king “recruited”.

Dropping Merry because they didn’t know who he was, or had some doubt that he might be one of the four hobbits they were hunting, is just very unsatisfying. It’s weak.

I must also point out that, in the earlier versions of the story, Merry was not picked up by the Nazgûl: he bolted back before they got him. Maybe this part of the story is a little rough. (It is a story, after all, and there are a few rough edges.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
I don't think the nazgul lured Merry to follow him. Maybe he did, but maybe Merry was just being inquisitive. It reminds me how Frodo walked in a daze towards Minas Morgul...
All things nazgul are most attractive.
Aw, you’re just sayin’ that ’cause you’re a N… ah… uh… um… Well, you know…


-|-

I still don’t understand why the Nazgûl dropped Merry. And I don’t like the reasoning that he just might have been a local, and uninvolved. (Of course, Prof. Tolkien failed to consult me concerning my likes and dislikes when he was writing…)

Last edited by Alcuin : 02-10-2009 at 03:58 PM.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 06:44 PM   #10
Attalus
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
 
Attalus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Bay of Belfalas
Posts: 1,125
Nazgul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
Merry got caught by the east gate of Bree, far-far from the Prancing Pony. He was not the only hobbit in Bree, not even one of the four hobbits in Bree - there were lots and lots of them, hundreds or more, all alike. Merry was caught far from the Inn, he had no Ring - why would the nazgul deem keeping and questioning him important? There was nothing to link Merry to the Ringbearer.
I agree with Gordis, here. It would be like waylaying a random Hobbit in the Southfarthing, and an unconscious one at that. People who have seen service all testify to what a bother prisoners were, and how little non-specialists can get from them, My feeling is that The Ringwraith was telling Ferny or Harry to drag Merry off the path to avoid raising the alarm, which of course is what happened.
BTW, many Tolkien scholars and readers doubt that the Ringwraiths were the ones who messed up the bolsters. It is my feeling that Ferny et al. were responsible.
__________________
"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.
Attalus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 07:02 PM   #11
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Attalus View Post
I agree with Gordis, here. It would be like waylaying a random Hobbit in the Southfarthing, and an unconscious one at that. People who have seen service all testify to what a bother prisoners were, and how little non-specialists can get from them,
I may be forced to accept this if no better explanation can emerge. (In which case I will still continue to hunt for something … more satisfying, at least to me.) I don’t like this explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attalus View Post
My feeling is that The Ringwraith was telling Ferny or Harry to drag Merry off the path to avoid raising the alarm, which of course is what happened.
BTW, many Tolkien scholars and readers doubt that the Ringwraiths were the ones who messed up the bolsters. It is my feeling that Ferny et al. were responsible.
Tolkien explicitly says, in both cases, that these are the two Nazgûl that entered Bree after their companion rode south along the Greenway to tell the Witch-king they had found the Ringbearer. That’s what’s in Tolkien’s working notes, and one of the reasons I cited them and the previous versions of this part of the story is that I wanted to clearly establish that Merry was dealing with a Ringwraith in Bree from the earliest version to the last and published version. IMO, for those “many Tolkien scholars and readers” to show that was not the two Ringwraiths in Bree “who messed up the bolsters,” they must explain away the working notes. I think that is a heavy burden.

Besides, if Sauron wouldn’t send any of his other servants to hunt for the One Ring, why would the Nazgûl trust Bill Ferny, who according to Aragorn “would sell anything to anybody”? Or were they naïve?
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2009, 07:15 PM   #12
Coffeehouse
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
 
Coffeehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
As Alcuin writes it's not at all a satisfying explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attalus View Post
It would be like waylaying a random Hobbit in the Southfarthing, and an unconscious one at that.
That would be absolutely true if it weren't for the fact that Merry spotted what was almost certainly a Nazgûl just outside of the Inn. Merry tells the rest later that "Suddenly I shivered and felt that something horrible was creeping near: there was a sort of deeper shade among the shadows across the road, just beyond the edge of the lamplight. It slid away at once into the dark without a sound." (FOTR 1968 - 189).

Whether Merry had chosen to follow the Nazgûl for a few yards or across to the end of the town matters not: if one of the Nazgûl worked out that Merry had seen him from across the road by the Inn he must also have worked out that there was a fair chance that Merry was one of the four hobbits. Instead of pursuing that possible lead the Nazgûl instead most likely knock him unconscious. Yet again the Nazgûl seem to prove that they shy away from acting in a calculated and inquisitive manner whenever they get the chance.
__________________
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air.
I hear your breath. Come along!
Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare."

Last edited by Coffeehouse : 02-10-2009 at 07:17 PM.
Coffeehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 03:54 AM   #13
Gordis
Lady of the Ulairi
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
Just let us look at the happenings in Bree closer and calculate the time.

The 3 hobbits went to the common room; there they were telling stories, singing songs, disappearing into thin air and meeting Strider.
Meanwhile Merry sat for an hour indoors alone, then went for a stroll through Bree [I guess it took him another hour, maybe more]. This time he saw nothing out of the ordinary, so after a time he turned back towards the Inn.

Bill Ferny, the Southerner and Harry the Gatekeeper, as well as lots of other displeased customers all left the Inn right after the Ring-incident. Merry did'n see a crowd of people coming out of the Inn, so they must have left it before he returned, while he was still strolling through Bree.

Bill Ferny likely went directly home to his house by the East gate. I don't think he would risk to be seen talking with some bogeymen in the street near the Inn.

Sometime later, a Ringwraith approached the Inn to investigate and was spotted by Merry who was now looking at the stars by the entrance. The other two nazgul likely remained beyond the gates with the horses.
The other three hobbits were already closeted in their room with Strider and later Butterbur (remember how long this conversation was!).

Now what followed had not taken much time. Merry followed the wraith to Ferny's house, and saw him talking with someone:
Quote:
suddenly I heard voices by the hedge. One was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing.
I guess Merry witnessed the very moment when Bill Ferny (the muttering one) was telling the nazgul (the whispering or hissing one) about Frodo's performance with the Ring in the Inn. For the nazgul the news was so very interesting, vital, stimulating, long-expected etc., that I guess normally he would have hardly heeded a mumak if it happened to tramp by . Yet, on this secret mission the nazgul senses were on the alert and he felt that someone was looking at him (A+ to the nazgul ).

Then Merry began to tremble all over. He turned back, and was just going to bolt home, when the nazgul came behind him and he swooned.

Now what would you expect the nazgul to do? He had just learned the very news he was hunting for: the exact whereabouts of the One Ring. He had to alert his two colleagues immediately and send one of them to warn the Captain. He had to plan with the others what to do the coming night about the Ring in the Inn. He had no time for waiting for the hobbit to come to an to question him.

There was no time and NO NEED to question the captured hobbit, even if he were one of the four (which the nazgul couldn't know). The nazgul had already learnt all he wanted to know and now was the time to act - and to act fast.

I guess the nazgul only checked that the swooned hobbit had no Ring and then, together with Ferny, they were about to carry Merry into Bill's house, not to leave him lying on the road for all to see. Another possibility was to throw him in a ditch, but I believe the note in RC quoted by Alcuin "failed to capture Merry" indicates the nazgul ordered Ferny to bind Merry and keep him as a prisoner - for later questioning if the need arises.

But for now Merry was practically useless, so when Nob arrived, they simply left Merry and retreated. It was no good to provoke trouble in Bree right before they were going to pay the Inn a quiet visit.

Doesn't it make sense?

Last edited by Gordis : 02-11-2009 at 03:56 AM.
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 05:24 AM   #14
CAB
Elven Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 306
I think it is a good explanation, Gordis. One problem may be that Ferny could have been expected to notice that Merry was an outsider in Bree, maybe even specifically a Shire Hobbit (if there was a difference in dress between Shire and Bree-land Hobbits). This could probably be explained away by the darkness, though.
CAB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 05:52 AM   #15
Alcuin
Salt Miner
 
Alcuin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: gone to Far Harad
Posts: 987
A few quibbles.

Harry Goatleaf the Gatekeeper is now removed from the Prancing Pony in the editions of LotR printed after 2004. His presence in the Inn was a carry-over from earlier versions of the story. See Reader’s Companion 160 (I: 172) for a full explanation.

Bill Ferny and his squint-eyed companion (the Isengard spy) probably went straight home and told the Nazgûl immediately about the three hobbits in the commons room. Ferny was probably the spy’s local contact, and a spy himself; as such, the Nazgûl would have paid him a friendly visit along with their new buddy the Isengard spy, and Ferny, always ready to adapt and adjust, made new friends. I expect the messenger Nazgûl set out along the Greenway immediately, but he is waylaid by Dúnedain along the road and does not reach the boss until the next day, after Strider has already led the hobbits out of town.

Ferny and the Isengard spy had not, of course, seen Merry, but Harry the Gatekeeper knew that four had entered town, and could have given at least a rough description of him. Bree is not a big place: Ferny would have recognized every hobbit in the community, and most in the surrounding communities, if not by name, by face. Merry was obviously an outsider to him. Merry was identifiable as a stranger, and thus a person of interest.

Whomever the Ringwraith was talking to on the other side of the hedge might be inconsequential. It could be another Nazgûl casting a “come hither” spell, compelling Merry to approach them. They didn’t hit him over the head, by the way: he fainted from fear projected by the Nazgul, which Aragorn identified as Black Breath. Perhaps the mumbling was a “project Black Breath” spell. Or maybe it was Bill Ferny saying, that guy’s not from Bree.

The text of the working notes says that there were two Ringwraiths in Bree. It says so twice. It says Frick and Frack
  1. were “foiled in their attempt to capture Merry”,
  2. made “plans for attack on the Inn at night”, and
  3. ”The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn”
Tolkien used letters to designate each Nazgûl, so he knew which one was where doing what and when.

The Nazgûl hadn’t “just learned” about Merry and his friends, but it was certainly recent, and I agree they had found out about Frodo’s unfortunate “accident” only an hour or so before Merry reached the hedge. (The text indicates that Frodo and Aragorn separately believed something had helpde bring on the “accident”.) I think there is very little room to doubt that the third Nazgûl was already riding to Andrath to report to the Witch-king that the Ringbearer had been located. I do think it is possible – unlikely, but possible – that the two Nazgûl still in Bree fouled the job by assigning Ferny and the Isengard spy the job of getting Merry into the house, but I really don’t think so: I think they did it themselves, and either inexplicably muffed it or stopped for some other reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordis View Post
It was no good to provoke trouble in Bree right before they were going to pay the Inn a quiet visit.

Doesn't it make sense?
Yes! Thank you! Yes it does.

That has to be it. They did recognize Merry as the fourth Shire-hobbit, and that has to be Ferny’s work. Whether Ferny and the spy, or Ferny and a Ringwraith, or IMO more likely the two Ringwraiths together were hauling him off, once Nob appeared, that game was up. Nob was shouting at them, and if they’d tried to silence him, that could have created a ruckus, and a disturbance that might allow the Ringbearer to escape again was not what they wanted. The Nazgûl could communicate over long distances with one another with their keening, and the Shire team, lead by Khamûl, and the East Road team were sending reports back to Andrath. The Shire team did not know that the Ringbearer had been found, of course: they didn’t have cell phones. But the East Road team may well have known by now that their bird had flown three times already: at Bag End, in Woody End, and at the Brandywine. Khamûl and his team were to break into Crickhollow and root him out if he was still there; the East Road team found him, but if they already knew he’d slipped the Shire bunch two or three times, they were probably careful to try to keep him from suspecting the Inn might be attacked.

Once Merry escaped, he was sure to tell Frodo what had happened, and he was almost sure to recognize a Black Rider, even if he didn’t know its true nature. That rips a hole in the theory that they didn’t want to tip off the hobbits in the Inn; but it also means the whole town wouldn’t be up in arms because they suspected invaders were inside the gates. That would have led to confusion, and the Ringbearer could escape more easily during any town-wide confusion.

Nob musty have been too far away for them to kill, capture, or cow him to keep him quiet. Before they could get to him, he’d have raised enough alarm and created enough disorder that the Ringbearer could get away without being noticed.

Their whole problem had been finding the Ringbearer to capture him, and now that they had found him, they needed to keep him found long enough to capture him. Leaving Merry was preferable to having a mess, with the added benefit that the four of them were almost certainly going to hole up in the hobbit guest-rooms overnight, which Ferny could identify for them.

And that is why they were so frustrated that they tore the place apart: their beautiful plan didn’t work, and the <Black Speech expletive deleted> Ringbearer eluded them yet again! Of course, they didn’t suspect that lousy Ranger of anything… after all, he was “just a Ranger.”

Thanks, Gordis. That has bothered me for years.

BTW, this fits hand-in-glove with Strider’s leading them out by the main road the next morning, and of course, why they spooked the horses. Just as Aragorn said, the Ringbearer could no longer slip away quietly, nor could they go very fast. In fact, it probably helped the next stage of Frodo’s flight, because lots of ponies are easier to find than just one dispirited old animal that Ferny probably described to them as a useless beast anyway.

(Note: this was cross-posted with CAB’s post.)

Last edited by Alcuin : 02-11-2009 at 05:58 AM.
Alcuin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 10:11 AM   #16
The Dread Pirate Roberts
Elf Lord
 
The Dread Pirate Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
How about this? They're in the process of picking Merry up to carry him off, after already determining he didn't have The Ring. Then they sense/see/hear Nob coming along. I think the perfectly natural reaction for anyone, Nazgul or not, would be, "Oh crap. Another one! Forget it. Just leave him. Neither of these little guys have The Ring anyway." Then back to their actual mission.
__________________
~The DPR
"Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."
The Dread Pirate Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 11:31 AM   #17
Coffeehouse
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
 
Coffeehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
I can agree that once Nob came running the Nazgûl had but no choice and leave Merry without further action.

Yet as some here have suggested, that the Nazgûl did not need to do anything with Merry because they already knew what they wanted and were in fact waiting to strike at night. But that logic falls short. After one of the Nazgûl has heard the news from the whereabouts of the ring-bearer they had every right to believe that they were only hours away from getting hold of the ring. All they had to do was wait until the middle of night and then strike.
But it did not turn out that way because Merry alerted the rest. That changed everything.
The Nazgûl were poor in judgement then to believe that they could just leave Merry lying there. By doing so they forfit whatever prior knowledge and plans they had because in all likelihood the ring-bearer won't be where they've been told he is.
If the Nazgûl had been clever they would have knocked Merry unconscious (as they did) and immediately grab him with them. They need not even interrogate him, they need not even kill him. All that was then required would be to make sure Merry did not make it to the Inn before their attack. The Nazgûl should have immediately changed their plan and made the attack right away or at least within a reasonable timespan of before Frodo & co start looking for Merry.

When letting Merry go, indeed, they knew that the ring was not present on him. But they should also had calculated that it was more than likely that Merry would alert the ring-bearer before that time. Because they did not do this their plan fell apart. Which to me concludes that they took a risk and got it wrong, yet again.
__________________
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air.
I hear your breath. Come along!
Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare."

Last edited by Coffeehouse : 02-11-2009 at 11:33 AM.
Coffeehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 12:36 PM   #18
The Dread Pirate Roberts
Elf Lord
 
The Dread Pirate Roberts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 987
Why should the Nazgul suspect that one random hobbit out of hundreds that lived in and around the town would specifically go and warn the Ringbearer upon waking up from some mysterious blackout? Sure, Merry did warn them, but how and why would the Nazgul know or even suspect that he would?
__________________
~The DPR
"Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning."
The Dread Pirate Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 01:11 PM   #19
Coffeehouse
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
 
Coffeehouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 2,145
I agree, it would be a high hill to climb to ask the Nazgûl to kidnap and/or interrogate just any hobbit wandering about Bree and who sees the Nazgûl conspirate with a local.

But that is not the case with Merry. He specifically stated that he was standing just outside the Inn, beneath a light, and saw, across the street a form blacker than shadow itself, which immediately fled when he looked towards it (thus we can infer that that form, the Nazgûl, spotted him).

He then proceeded to follow the Nazgûl all the way until he was eventually knocked unconscious. It appears obvious that the at least one of the Nazgûl then knew that a hobbit had from the entrance of the Inn followed themm, and thus Merry becomes an automatic suspect.

He isn't then just another local from anywhere in Bree, he's a hobbit first seen outside of the Inn, the very same place the Baggins with the Ring is.

Now there is obviously the possibility that Merry was just another local hobbit that had taken a pint at the Inn. But is that a chance the Nazgûl want to take? Seems so.

Perhaps one can think of it two ways:
a) The Nazgûl panicked when seeing Merry spying on them and knocked him unconscious to get rid of his prying eyes.
b) or the Nazgûl gambled: "Alright the hobbit came (most likely) from the Inn (since he was standing outside), but let's take a chance. We know where the Baggins is and if we're lucky he won't know the other hobbit we just knocked over.." *Shrill, cold laughter*
__________________
"Well, thief! I smell you and I feel your air.
I hear your breath. Come along!
Help yourself again, there is plenty and to spare."
Coffeehouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2009, 02:59 PM   #20
Gordis
Lady of the Ulairi
 
Gordis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Minas Morgul
Posts: 2,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
A few quibbles.
Harry Goatleaf the Gatekeeper is now removed from the Prancing Pony in the editions of LotR printed after 2004. His presence in the Inn was a carry-over from earlier versions of the story. See Reader’s Companion 160 (I: 172) for a full explanation.
I know. BTW, I think Chris had no right to edit the text anyway. There are quite a few leftovers from the drafts left overlooked in the LOTR text - so, why remove this one and leave the others? And where one should stop in these edits?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
Bill Ferny and his squint-eyed companion (the Isengard spy) probably went straight home and told the Nazgûl immediately about the three hobbits in the commons room.
Wait-wait. Why do you think the nazgul were waiting in Ferny's house while he was drinking in the Pony? Why then, if they had already learnt Bill's news, was one nazgul hanging outside the Inn?

I believe the three nazgul remained outside of Bree, not at Bill's. It would be much safer and less conspicuous. Then I don't believe that Bill had a stable large enough to stable three big black horses - and all that without neighbors noticing a thing. Note Bill's buddy the Southerner stayed at the Inn, his horse in the Pony's stable.

At nightfall, one nazgul slipped into Bree, using Harry Goatleaf's gate, and went to investigate. He saw the Inn was getting empty (no noise anymore from the common room) and continued through Bree to Ferny's house.
Only then did he learn the news, and Merry witnessed it. The third nazgul yet had to be found and dispatched to Andrath.

Also I don't believe Merry overheard two nazgul talking between themselves. It just doesn't ring true. The nazgul either would have used Osanwe(most likely), or they would have spoken in the Black Tongue between themselves.
Yet Merry didn't describe the sounds they produced as repulsive or incomprehensible, he was simply said to be too far away to make out the words. I am pretty sure one of the guys by the hedge was a mortal, most likely Bill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
I think there is very little room to doubt that the third Nazgûl was already riding to Andrath to report to the Witch-king that the Ringbearer had been located.
I expect the messenger Nazgûl set out along the Greenway immediately, but he is waylaid by Dúnedain along the road and does not reach the boss until the next day, after Strider has already led the hobbits out of town.
I agree, but immediately after he had learned the news - and that would be after Merry's incident, IMO.

Merry spent about 2 hours before following the nazgul; I believe the 3 hobbits also spent about 2 hours in the common room. Ferny barely had time to return home when the nazgul paid him a visit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
Ferny and the Isengard spy had not, of course, seen Merry, but Harry the Gatekeeper knew that four had entered town, and could have given at least a rough description of him. Bree is not a big place: Ferny would have recognized every hobbit in the community, and most in the surrounding communities, if not by name, by face. Merry was obviously an outsider to him. Merry was identifiable as a stranger, and thus a person of interest.
1. as CAB says, it was dark: too dark to discern a face clearly, much less the clothes. Ferny's vision was not enhanced in the dark.
2. All the hobbits would look much the same to a Man. Remember:
Quote:
'A stout little fellow with red cheeks,' said Mr. Butterbur solemnly. Pippin chuckled, but Sam looked indignant. 'That won't help you much; it goes for most hobbits.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
Whomever the Ringwraith was talking to on the other side of the hedge might be inconsequential. It could be another Nazgûl casting a “come hither” spell, compelling Merry to approach them.
A “follow me” spell was probably used on Merry by the Inn. At this time the nazgul still had no news at all, and to get one of the Prancing Pony hobbits for questioning seemed a good idea. Then, when the nazgul saw Ferny and learned the news, Merry lost all his appeal and was discarded. The nazgul now had urgent things to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
They didn’t hit him over the head, by the way: he fainted from fear projected by the Nazgul, which Aragorn identified as Black Breath.
I said he fainted, never said he was hit, did I?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
The text of the working notes says that there were two Ringwraiths in Bree. It says so twice. It says Frick and Frack
  1. were “foiled in their attempt to capture Merry”,
  2. made “plans for attack on the Inn at night”, and
  3. ”The Inn attacked by two Riders in early hours before dawn”
Tolkien used letters to designate each Nazgûl, so he knew which one was where doing what and when.
There were three nazgul in Bree in the evening, then one departed for Andrath, leaving two. Easy math. I believe at the time of Merry's incident all three were still around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
The Nazgûl hadn’t “just learned” about Merry and his friends, but it was certainly recent, and I agree they had found out about Frodo’s unfortunate “accident” only an hour or so before Merry reached the hedge.
Why "an hour or so" before? Why not when Merry was there?
Merry spent about 2 hours before following the nazgul. Your interpretation means that the 3 hobbits (Frodo, Pippin, Sam) spent less than an hour in the common room. Yet the account of their doings in the common room is long: introductions, questions, Frodo's tale about a book he was planning to write, the info the other hobbits provided for that book, Frodo listening to talk of Men and Dwarves and grim predictions of the Southerner, Pippin's tales about the Shire, Frodo's acquaintance with Strider, Frodo's song and disappearance... All this should have taken more than an hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
Once Merry escaped, he was sure to tell Frodo what had happened, and he was almost sure to recognize a Black Rider, even if he didn’t know its true nature. That rips a hole in the theory that they didn’t want to tip off the hobbits in the Inn; but it also means the whole town wouldn’t be up in arms because they suspected invaders were inside the gates. That would have led to confusion, and the Ringbearer could escape more easily during any town-wide confusion.
Suppose that the nazgul indeed knew that Merry was one of the four Shire-Hobbits (not that I believe it). Well, what happens if he disappears? Most likely his friends would send men to look for him (Pony staff, maybe also some customers from the Inn, maybe the Ranger who was there). Bill's house would be suspicious, as Ferny had bad reputation. Likely it would be searched.
Anyway, the Shire hobbits would be unlikely to go to bed and sleep peacefully in their rooms before Merry is found. It was exactly what the nazgul wished to avoid. As it was, Merry told some vague tale, after which the hobbits went to bed, bolting the door, and but for Strider they would have slept in the rooms assigned to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alcuin
Their whole problem had been finding the Ringbearer to capture him, and now that they had found him, they needed to keep him found long enough to capture him. Leaving Merry was preferable to having a mess, with the added benefit that the four of them were almost certainly going to hole up in the hobbit guest-rooms overnight, which Ferny could identify for them.
And that is why they were so frustrated that they tore the place apart: their beautiful plan didn’t work, and the <Black Speech expletive deleted> Ringbearer eluded them yet again! Of course, they didn’t suspect that lousy Ranger of anything… after all, he was “just a Ranger.”
Exactly.

Last edited by Gordis : 02-11-2009 at 03:06 PM.
Gordis is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas Gordis Middle Earth 217 10-03-2013 03:43 PM
Queer things you hear.... frodosampippinmerry Lord of the Rings Books 37 03-23-2007 02:30 PM
Were the Nazgul free from Sauron for the most part of the Third Age? Gordis Middle Earth 141 07-09-2006 07:16 PM
*Discussion Thread* Of Nazgûl-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign (Calling all Nazgûl II) Grey_Wolf RPG Forum 1000 10-04-2005 05:26 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2019, The Tolkien Trail