How "Human" are wraiths?

[Tinman]

I've been contemplating this for a while... exactly how much humanity remains to the ring wraiths? Are they completely mindless? being actively controlled by Sauron? Are they capable of independent thought? Or are they more like robots?

This varries greatly depending on the source. The animated film would have us believe they are like lurching zombies.... while the jackson film seems more like unyeilding ghost warriors.

The books view is what im most interested in though... Gloin/Gimli say that one of them came to eribor to negotiate for the dwarf rings... are they still capable of social interactions then? Or was it more like he showed up with a paper listing Saurons demands and just handed it off?

I know the witchking and gandalf exchange words, as well as the shield maden (can't spell eyowen, and am too lazy to look it up ), but the witchking seems to be slightly different from the 8...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

One of them (Khamul?) spoke with the Gaffer, and also with Farmer Maggot.

They can interact with each other and with Elves and mortals. They'd be pretty poor servants if they needed Sauron's constant attention, wouldn't they? Also, how could WiKi rule Minas Morgul and Khamul Dol Guldur without some autonomy?

[Attalus]

The Ringwraiths retain all aspects of their humanity EXCEPT their bodies, long since *faded* after the manner of Elves that have remained in Midlle-Earth too long, and their Free Will, which they were tricked by Sauron into yielding through their acceptance of the unnatural power of the Nine Rings. Gandalf says of their robes, that they are "real robes, to give shape to their nothingness," and they must ride beasts that have grown used to them to travel with any speed. Nonetheless, they still can speak, though unpersuasively (except through fear) which helps them with evil creatures like the Southron, once a spy of Saruman, and Bill Ferny.

[Tinman]

And their intelligence?
Im trying to get a feel for just what these beings were...

I tried to use gollum as the missing link... kind of the halfway step between living and wraith... however this has the flaw that gollum was not human, was effected by a very different ring (though maybe governed by the same physics), and his insanity and decent into darkness was heavily influenced by living in a pitchblack cave for 500 years.

Are we though, to believe, that the wraiths were "gollum like" in their transition?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Tinman

I've been contemplating this for a while... exactly how much humanity remains to the ring wraiths? Are they completely mindless? being actively controlled by Sauron? Are they capable of independent thought? Or are they more like robots?

Grrr... Where did you get this idea, I wonder???

[

Originally Posted by Tinman

The books view is what im most interested in though... Gloin/Gimli say that one of them came to eribor to negotiate for the dwarf rings... are they still capable of social interactions then? Or was it more like he showed up with a paper listing Saurons demands and just handed it off?

Erm, why not reread Gloin's account at the Council? The nazgul's exact words are given...

Originally Posted by Tinman

And their intelligence?

Oh, come on! The WK was a great King and a great sorceror, even Gandalf admitted that. He ruled Angmar highly successfully, unlike those Arnor dudes... And he ruled Minas Morgul for 1000 years, without any of those high-and-mighty Kings and Stewards of Gondor even attempting to regain it.
And he was the first and the last conqueror to pass through the Gates of Minas Tirith.
It was he who directed the assault on Minas Tirith, it was the hour of HIS victory, not Sauron's, strictly speaking.

I quote from LOTR:

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons." - Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Return of the King, p.114

"Now silently the host of Rohan moved forward into the field of Gondor, pouring in slowly but steadily, like the rising tide through breaches in the dike that men had thought secure. But the mind and will of the Black Captain were bent wholly on the falling city, and as yet no tidings came to him warning him that his designs held any flaw." - Siege of Gondor, Return of the King, p.111

And how brilliantly the WK had trapped Earnur, playing on the King's weaknesses:

"Eärnur had held the crown only seven years when the Lord of Morgul repeated his challenge, taunting the king that to the faint heart of his youth he had now added the weakness of age. Then Mardil could no longer restrain him, and he rode with a small escort of knights to the gate of Minas Morgul. None of that riding were ever heard of again. It was believed in Gondor that the faithless enemy had trapped the king, and that he had died in torment in Minas Morgul; but since there were no witnesses of his death, Mardil the Good Steward ruled Gondor in his name for many years." -Appendix A, Return of the King, p.331

Originally Posted by Tinman

I tried to use gollum as the missing link... kind of the halfway step between living and wraith... however this has the flaw that gollum was not human, was effected by a very different ring (though maybe governed by the same physics), and his insanity and decent into darkness was heavily influenced by living in a pitchblack cave for 500 years.

Exactly. Add to that that Gollum was "a mean son of a thief -L#181" from the very beginning, not one of the greatest men of their age handpicked by Sauron.

Originally Posted by Tinman

Are we though, to believe, that the wraiths were "gollum like" in their transition?

No they weren't. Their starting points and their paths were different:

Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron – it leads the small to a Gollum, and the great to a Ringwraith.Letter #212

[Attalus]

And, we should not forget the words of Gandalf, when asked what would have happened if the Morgul-knife had pierced Frodo's heart. "You would have become like they are, only weaker and under their control."

[Tinman]

So why did gollum become a frog man? Would the one ring have had this effect on bilbo? Isildur?

Would the 9 have turned hobbits into froglike creatures or into wraiths? Would gollum have become a wraith eventually

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If Gollum became a "frog man", it is from spending the better part of five centuries in the water. I think even the weakest swimmer of us could become masters of the water with that amount of time and practice.

If by "frog man" you mean he physically changed features by evolving/devolving/mutating/whatever, I'm not sure there's any non-movie evidence of that. He got really skinny, came to be able to see well in the dark, and became a really great swimmer. As I said, 500 years in the water of a cave will do that to you.

Unless I'm forgetting something...

[Tinman]

So we're blaming his inhuman sense of smell, ability to see in the dark, and mutated body (he did not pass as a hobbit any longer) on the evolution of 500 years spent in a cave, not the ring he used in that time?

[Gordis]

Well, the Ring enabled him to live these 500+ years. Without it, he would have died long before becoming adapted.

[Attalus]

"The Ring gave him power according to his stature." -Gandalf

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

inhuman sense of smell, ability to see in the dark, and mutated body

I'm not sure his sense of smell was "inhuman" or that his body was "mutated". Got any supporting text?

[Tinman]

Multiple times they mention his eyes changing colors depending on his mood...

"to his alarm Bilbo now saw two small
points of light peering at him. As suspicion grew in Gollum's mind, the light
of his eyes burned with a pale flame."

Normal hobbits eyes dont glow in the dark, change between green and yellow.

There are various mentions of elven materials burning his skin. Not normal to other hobbit physiology.

I can look those up later for you. I Dont my books on me right now.

[Tinman]

Also, i take it that since Bilbo could not tell that gollum was a hobbit, he had to be pretty much had to have been warped to some extent.

Show me a starved wild human... and i can still tell its a human.

[Attalus]

Aiiie, not the old "Was Gollum a Stoor" argument!!!

Seriously, the Nine were capable of wasting Mortal Men away to wraths, why would the One not be able to work some changes?

As far as the eyes changing color, that's a literary trope, often seen in novels but never in real life. (and I should know, I look at them professionally every day)

[Tinman]

Wait. Gandalf comes right out and says gollum was a hobbit at some time.

Whats your arguement against this?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

The Elvish rope and leaves didn't literally burn his hands any more than his eyes literally changed colors.

As for the burning, it was psychological most likely and perhaps psychosomatic, though I doubt that.

For the eyes, Attalus addressed that. It's a literary trope.

As for Bilbo not recognizing him as a Hobbit, when and where did Bilbo ever see him? In the pitch darkness of a cave, with the only light the dim glow of a sword showing that orcs were pretty far away. Ever been in a cave? There is no dark like it. I don't think Bilbo got any kind of a decent look at Gollum and his descriptions, such as they were, were based more on sounds and imagination than sight.

[Tinman]

If his "two big round pale eyes in his thin
face" were not really glowing on their own for bilbo to see them, then his sword would have been giving off more light than you're giving it credit for.

An orc claims he looks like like a "starved frog."

I also recall Sam noticing that his eyes changed colors while he talked to himself.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

If we're going to take Gollum's eyes literally, we're going to also have to believe that the eyes of Elves emitted light, as well. I don't think many readers are willing to go there.

I can't tell you you're wrong. I can merely disagree with your conclusion. It's all good.

[Tinman]

Well, its not that im saying you're wrong, its just i can find quotes that seem to support this, but cant find quotes that conflict with it. Are there and lines that you might have in mind that conflict?