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Old 07-31-2003, 08:19 PM   #1
Maedhros
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The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

From The Published Silmarillion: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
Quote:
It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones in the Ring of Doom; but they were not idle, as Fanor declared in the folly of his heart. For the Valar may work many things with thought rather than with hands, and without voices in silence they may hold council one with another.
This seems like sanwe-kenta to me:
Quote:
At the end of the Lammas Pengolodh discusses briefly direct thought-transmission (sanwe-latya "thought-opening"), making several assertions about it, which are evidently dependent upon theories and observations of the Eldar elsewhere treated at length by Elvish loremasters. They are concerned primarily with the Eldar and the Valar (including the lesser Maiar of the same order).
From ibid.
Quote:
But at that last word of Fanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil yet be good to have been.'
This seems to me exactly like the part of the Ainulindal, where Ilvatar tells Melkor:
Quote:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
ibid.
Quote:
But when at last the Valar learned that the Noldor had indeed passed out of Aman and were come back into Middle-earth, they arose and began to set forth in deeds those counsels which they had taken in thought for the redress of the evils of Melkor. Then Manw bade Yavanna and Nienna to put forth all their powers of growth and healing; and they put forth all their powers upon the Trees. But the tears of Nienna availed not to heal their mortal wounds; and for a long while Yavanna sang alone in the shadows. Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single trait of gold.
Interesting note that they made sure that the oldor had left Aman before they began their work. I wonder why. Perhaps if they had not waited for them to leave, they would have gotten something more than one flower of silver and a single trait of gold.

ibid.
Quote:
But the flower and the fruit Yavanna gave to Aul, and Manw hallowed them, and Aul and his people made vessels to hold them and preserve their radiance: as is said in the Narsilion, the Song of the Sun and Moon. These vessels the Valar gave to Varda, that they might become lamps of heaven, outshining the ancient stars, being nearer to Arda; and she gave them power to traverse the lower regions of Ilmen, and set them to voyage upon appointed courses above the girdle of the Earth from the West unto the East and to return.
Have you not noticed that Manw is the one who hallowed the flower and fruit of Yavanna, while it is Varda the one who hallows the Silmarils? Yavanna gets the fruits, Aul makes their vessels, Manw hallows them and Varda sets them in Ilmen to traverse from West unto the East and back again. It is the work of two sets of spouses. Hmmmmm. Interesting.
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What does the term american refers to asked the boy, and the wise man answered: Lets look at the dictionary then.
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, What is America then?, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the Americas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?
The wise man replied: What do you think?, and the boy answered: It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too, the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, Am I right?, and he replied: But of course.
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 07-31-2003, 08:22 PM   #2
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Part II

ibid.
Quote:
These things the Valar did, recalling in their twilight the darkness of the lands of Arda; and they resolved now to illumine Middle-earth and with light to hinder the deeds of Melkor. For they remembered the Avari that remained by the waters of their awakening, and they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile; and Manw knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh. And it is said indeed that, even as the Valar made war upon Melkor for the sake of the Quendi, so now for that time they forbore for the sake of the Hildor, the Aftercomers, the younger Children of Ilvatar. For so grievous had been the hurts of Middle-earth in the war upon Utumno that the Valar feared lest even worse should now befall; whereas the Hildor should be mortal, and weaker than the Quendi to withstand fear and tumult. Moreover it was not revealed to Manw where the beginning of Men should be, north, south, or east. Therefore the Valar sent forth light, but made strong the land of their dwelling.
Note that the Sun and Moon are set to traverse the whole of Middle-earth because the Valar had no knowledge of where Men would awake. Suppose that the Trees were not destroyed. Would the Valar had done something to bring light to Middle-earth? What about the Avari who were still in ME before the felling of the trees? Were they destined to darkness.
ibid.
Quote:
The maiden whom the Valar chose from among the Maiar to guide the vessel of the Sun was named Arien, and he that steered the island of the Moon was Tilion. In the days of the Trees Arien had tended the golden flowers in the gardens of Vna, and watered them with the bright dews of Laurelin; but Tilion was a hunter of the company of Orom, and he had a silver bow. He was a lover of silver, and when he would rest he forsook the woods of Orom, and going into Lrien he lay hi dream by the pools of Est, in Telperion's flickering beams; and he begged to be given the task of tending for ever the last Flower of Silver. Arien the maiden was mightier than he, and she was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin, and was unhurt by them, being from the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service. Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valinor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendour.
A female to man the vessel of the Sun (Anar). I wonder if JRRT did that because he thought that women were feistier than men. Notice that Arien is mightier than Tilion (the one who mans the vessel of the Moon (Isil)).
ibid.
Quote:
Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the sleep of Yavanna. The servants of Morgoth were filled with amazement, but the Elves of the Outer Lands looked up in delight; and even as the Moon rose above the darkness in the west, Fingolfin let blow his silver trumpets and began his march into Middle-earth, and the shadows of his host went long and black before them.
It is the Moon who is the weakest, the older of the two vessels to arose, and notice the curious fact that precisely when Fingolfin reaches ME, the Moon comes too.
ibid.
Quote:
Because of the waywardness of Tilion, therefore, and yet more because of the prayers of Lrien and Est, who said that sleep and rest had been banished from the Earth, and the stars were hidden, Varda changed her counsel, and allowed a time wherein the world should still have shadow and half-light. Anar rested therefore a while in Valinor, lying upon the cool bosom of the Outer Sea; and Evening, the time of the descent and resting of the Sun, was the hour of greatest light and joy in Aman. But soon the Sun was drawn down by the servants of Ulmo, and went then in haste under the Earth, and so came unseen to the east and there mounted the heaven again, lest night be over-long and evil walk under the Moon. But by Anar the waters of the Outer Sea were made hot and glowed with coloured fire, and Valinor had light for a while after the passing of Arien. Yet as she journeyed under the Earth and drew towards the east the glow faded and Valinor was dim, and the Valar mourned then most for the death of Laurelin. At dawn the shadows of the Mountains of Defence lay heavy on the Blessed Realm.
Notice that both vessels go from west to east and their journey back west they go under the earth. At all times the fact that the World is not round is reminded in this part of the Mythology. And of course, there are the explanations of the different times of day, and the eclipses are explained by the fact that the Moon traverses faster than the Sun.
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What does the term american refers to asked the boy, and the wise man answered: Lets look at the dictionary then.
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, What is America then?, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the Americas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?
The wise man replied: What do you think?, and the boy answered: It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too, the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, Am I right?, and he replied: But of course.
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 07-31-2003, 08:25 PM   #3
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Part III

ibid.
Quote:
Still therefore, after the Long Night, the light of Valinor was greater and fairer than upon Middle-earth; for the Sun rested there, and the lights of heaven drew nearer to Earth in that region. But neither the Sun nor the Moon can recall the light that was of old, that came from the Trees before they were touched by the poison of Ungoliant That light lives now in the Silmarils alone.
Always Valinr is fairer than ME, but there is the emphasis that the light of the Sun and the Moon is not the rival to the one of the Trees.

ibid.
Quote:
But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious. And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds. With shadows he hid himself and his servants from Arien, the glance of whose eyes they could not long endure; and the lands near his dwelling were shrouded in fumes and great clouds.
Again the fact that although Morgoth had at one point being the mightiest of all of the Ainur, now he is afraid of the Sun and he send his attacks against the weaker Moon. Notice the last few lines in this paragraph, sounds a lot like the Essay of Melkor Morgoth in Myths Transformed.

ibid.
Quote:
But seeing the assault upon Tilion the Valar were in doubt, fearing what the malice and cunning of Morgoth might yet contrive against them. Being unwilling to make war upon him in Middle-earth, they remembered nonetheless the ruin of Almaren; and they resolved that the like should not befall Valinor. Therefore at that time they fortified their land anew, and they raised up the mountain-walls of the Pelri to sheer and dreadful heights, east, north, and south. Their outer sides were dark and smooth, without foothold or ledge, and they fell in great precipices with faces hard as glass, and rose up to towers with crowns of white ice. A sleepless watch was set upon them, and no pass led through them, save only at the Calacirya: but that pass the Valar did not close, because of the Eldar that were faithful, and in the city of Tirion upon the green hill Finarfin yet ruled the remnant of the Noldor in the deep cleft of the mountains. For all those of elven-race, even the Vanyar and Ingw their lord, must breathe at times the outer air and the wind that comes over the sea from the lands of their birth; and the Valar would not sunder the Teleri wholly from their kin. But in the Calacirya they set strong towers and many sentinels, and at its issue upon the plains of Valmar a host was encamped, so that neither bird nor beast nor elf nor man, nor any creature beside that dwelt in Middle-earth, could pass that leaguer.
Again, a setback for the Valar, and their choice of action is to hide themselves further. It is interesting the way they arranged themselves even the Elves in Valinor. Notice that the elves have to breath the outer air and the wind of ME. That makes me wonder.
__________________
What does the term american refers to asked the boy, and the wise man answered: Lets look at the dictionary then.
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, What is America then?, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the Americas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?
The wise man replied: What do you think?, and the boy answered: It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too, the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, Am I right?, and he replied: But of course.
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 07-31-2003, 08:30 PM   #4
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References

References:
Tale of the Sun and the Moon from Bolt 1, The Sketch of Mythology, The Ambarankanta and the Quenta Noldorinwa from The Shaping of Middle-Earth. The Quenta Silmarillion of The Lost Road and Other Writtings. The Essay Myths Transformed in and the Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding
of Valinor in Morgoths Ring.

Later I will post the differences between several of these versions and post why the Ambarankanta is necessary in understanding the Tale.

Finally, the most important question is:
Why the Man in the Moon came down too soon?
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What does the term american refers to asked the boy, and the wise man answered: Lets look at the dictionary then.
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, What is America then?, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the Americas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?
The wise man replied: What do you think?, and the boy answered: It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too, the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, Am I right?, and he replied: But of course.
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 08-01-2003, 04:34 AM   #5
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Good, good work Maedhros! Lot to comment, but fist I must digest it and read the chapter.
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Old 08-01-2003, 05:20 AM   #6
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Re: Part III

Wow, great job Maedhros!

I don't wanna talk about sun and moon, because I like more the version of LT1.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Again, a setback for the Valar, and their choice of action is to hide themselves further. It is interesting the way they arranged themselves even the Elves in Valinor. Notice that the elves have to breath the outer air and the wind of ME. That makes me wonder.
Here the Valar seems to notice for the first time, what they did, while bringing the Elves to Valinor.
Maybe they now understood the words of Mandos in Cap.3:
Quote:
'So it is doomed.'
Now they don't want to make the same mistake with the second Children of Iluvatar and leave them on their own.
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Old 08-01-2003, 09:25 AM   #7
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I much better like the creation version JRRT was working on when he died, as explained in Myths tranform. A more complete and regualr univrverse, solar system, and earth is created before the Children arrive. The Sun and Moon already exist, During the early war with Melkor before the Children, the Valar cover Aman with a protective dome with Psedo Star in it, and the two tress are created to light aman under the dome, using the light of the sun and moon, rather than the other way around.
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Old 08-02-2003, 05:11 AM   #8
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Re: The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
But at that last word of Fanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil yet be good to have been.'

This seems to me exactly like the part of the Ainulindal, where Ilvatar tells Melkor:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
Somehow these quotes made me remember a very important line from the Catholic liturgy of Easter Sunday's Eve:
Quote:
O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorum
That may be translated as "O blessed sin (literally, happy fault) which received as its reward so great and so good a redeemer".

I think that that line might be in the background of Tolkien's mind (conscious or unconsciously) when he conceived his myth.
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Old 08-02-2003, 05:33 AM   #9
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Re: The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

Impressive work, Maedhros.
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Interesting note that they made sure that the oldor had left Aman before they began their work. I wonder why. Perhaps if they had not waited for them to leave, they would have gotten something more than one flower of silver and a single trait of gold.
That's a good question. But I don't think the oldor could have aided the Valar in bringing back life to the Trees one last time. Perhaps the Valar during their silent counsel together had devised a different plan for the case of the oldor turning back from their journey. Though I don't see what they could have done differently.
Quote:
and notice the curious fact that precisely when Fingolfin reaches ME, the Moon comes too.
It is a nice coordination of the events. Fingolfin reaches ME with the first Moonrise. Men awoke at the first Sunrise. And the Sun is mightier than the Moon. Is this a symbol of the fading of the Elves for the benefit of Men?

Maedhros, this coordination of the events and your comments about how good always seem to come out of from evil, made me think of this passage from The later annals of Valinor, HoME 5:
Quote:
But the first dawn shone upon Fingolfin's march, and his blue and silver banners were unfurled, and flowers sprang under his marching feet; for a time of opening and growth, sudden, swift, and fair, was come into the world, and good of evil, as ever happens.
I think this is beautiful. Besides describing the great change that happened to ME, it's like the Valar are saying: We have still thought for you. You are not wholly forsaken or forgotten.
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Old 08-02-2003, 12:01 PM   #10
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Fanastic intro Maedhros. thanks for taking it on.
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Old 08-06-2003, 01:26 PM   #11
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Re: Part II

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Notice that both vessels go from west to east and their journey back west they go under the earth. At all times the fact that the World is not round is reminded in this part of the Mythology. And of course, there are the explanations of the different times of day, and the eclipses are explained by the fact that the Moon traverses faster than the Sun. [/b]
I think you have not read it well, Maedhros. The travel of the vessels is from East to West over the world, and then back to East under the earth.
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Old 08-11-2003, 02:00 AM   #12
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Thanks, Maedhros! You have some books that I don't, and I like to see the quotes from them.

I always had a slightly different thought on this passage:
Quote:
But when at last the Valar learned that the Noldor had indeed passed out of Aman and were come back into Middle-earth, they arose and began to set forth in deeds those counsels which they had taken in thought for the redress of the evils of Melkor. Then Manw bade Yavanna and Nienna to put forth all their powers of growth and healing; and they put forth all their powers upon the Trees. But the tears of Nienna availed not to heal their mortal wounds; and for a long while Yavanna sang alone in the shadows. Yet even as hope failed and her song faltered, Telperion bore at last upon a leafless bough one great flower of silver, and Laurelin a single trait of gold.
Your thought was:
Quote:
by Maedhros
Interesting note that they made sure that the oldor had left Aman before they began their work. I wonder why. Perhaps if they had not waited for them to leave, they would have gotten something more than one flower of silver and a single trait of gold.
My thought on this passage was that they waited only because they wanted to give the oldor every possible chance to choose to stay and set things right on their own initiative. When they had left, and in such a manner as made it very clear that they would not be coming back anytime soon, it was then that "they arose and began to set forth in deeds those counsels which they had taken in thought for the redress of the evils of Melkor." I imagine they had two plans thought out - one for if the oldor stayed, and one for if they left.

And I noticed that bit about having to breathe the outside air, too - interesting!
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Old 08-11-2003, 02:06 AM   #13
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Re: Re: The Silmarillion Ch 10: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

Quote:
Originally posted by Fat middle
Somehow these quotes made me remember a very important line from the Catholic liturgy of Easter Sunday's Eve: "O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorum"
That may be translated as "O blessed sin (literally, happy fault) which received as its reward so great and so good a redeemer".

I think that that line might be in the background of Tolkien's mind (conscious or unconsciously) when he conceived his myth.
What an interesting thought, FM! Thanks for sharing that. It reminds me of a song that is in many Christian hymnals that we sing around Easter - "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" - the third verse is:

"See, from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down:
Did e'er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?"

The same idea - from great sorrow, comes greater love. I think that theme is in Tolkien's work in many areas.
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"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

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Last edited by Ran : 08-11-2003 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 08-11-2003, 02:13 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
I much better like the creation version JRRT was working on when he died, as explained in Myths tranform. A more complete and regualr univrverse, solar system, and earth is created before the Children arrive. The Sun and Moon already exist, During the early war with Melkor before the Children, the Valar cover Aman with a protective dome with Psedo Star in it, and the two tress are created to light aman under the dome, using the light of the sun and moon, rather than the other way around.
I'm of two minds about that new set-up... I like it, yet I'm so used to the lovely line about Fingolfin setting foot on ME when the Moon first rose...

And as Artanis said:
Quote:
by Artanis
Fingolfin reaches ME with the first Moonrise. Men awoke at the first Sunrise. And the Sun is mightier than the Moon. Is this a symbol of the fading of the Elves for the benefit of Men?
Can you imagine how hard it must have been to try to rework all that he had written to reflect the new cosmology? Christopher Tolkien didn't seem to like the new stuff, esp. about the moon being kind of a base for Morgoth, IIRC.
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Old 08-12-2003, 03:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ran
I'm of two minds about that new set-up...
....
Christopher Tolkien didn't seem to like the new stuff
I feel the same way. Somehow I think the new cosmology is too scientific, too much alike the real world.
Quote:
My thought on this passage was that they waited only because they wanted to give the oldor every possible chance to choose to stay and set things right on their own initiative.
That's a good thought, but I think the moment when Finarfin forsook the march was the last chance of the oldor to turn back and redeem themselves. Those who went on towards Middle-Earth had made their choice and was cursed.
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Old 08-19-2003, 06:12 AM   #16
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Well done Maedhros!

Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
A female to man the vessel of the Sun (Anar). I wonder if JRRT did that because he thought that women were feistier than men. Notice that Arien is mightier than Tilion (the one who mans the vessel of the Moon (Isil)).
I don't know whether he choose a woman to steer the Sun because he thought her feistier. Perhaps he wanted a change, in contrast with most mythologies where the sun is male. More likely I think he did it because of the life-giving aspect of women. For when the Sun rises above Middle-earth, the race of Men awakes. It has a nice symmetry in my eyes.

That Arien is mightier than Tilion might be explained by the fact that the sunlight is more powerful than the moonlight. At the moon we might look, but the sun is too bright for us to gaze on long. This is reflected, I suppose, in the fact that even the Eldar could not look into Arien's eyes. And when she shedded the form in which she walked in Valinor so that she steered the Sun as a flame, 'in fullness of her splendour', she must have been bright indeed. I wonder if she'd needed sunglasses to look at herself in the mirror.


While reading this quote...

Quote:
But neither the Sun nor the Moon can recall the light that was of old, that came from the Trees before they were touched by the poison of Ungoliant That light lives now in the Silmarils alone.
....together with this quote...

Quote:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
....I was struck with a thought. In a way the light of the Sun and Moon is a result of the light of the Trees mixed with the spiderspoison. In that view Morgoth is partially responsible of the making of the Sun and Moon. In his effort to kill all light, his effort turned against him and made light for the whole world so that all his doings on Middle-earth were suddenly brought to light. Could it be that Illuvatar actually used Morgoth to lure the Valar back out of their Valinor-hiding place? And forced them indirectly to bring light and life that they had kept for so long in Valinor to the rest of Middle-earth?
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Old 08-19-2003, 02:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
That's a good thought, but I think the moment when Finarfin forsook the march was the last chance of the oldor to turn back and redeem themselves. Those who went on towards Middle-Earth had made their choice and was cursed.
Yes, I agree

and on Erniel's post - I never thought of that, that the light in the Sun and the Moon was affected by the spider poison - those trees must have been awesome, if the Sun and the Moon are a diminished form of the Trees' light! And about the rest of your thought, yes, that always seems to be the way of Illuvatar - to make an even better good from any evil that happens.
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Old 08-19-2003, 02:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Erniel
Could it be that Illuvatar actually used Morgoth to lure the Valar back out of their Valinor-hiding place? And forced them indirectly to bring light and life that they had kept for so long in Valinor to the rest of Middle-earth?
Very interesting thought Erniel

But I'd shift its key: you are speaking ex post, and I see it more from an ex ante point of view. When Illuvatar created the ainur, he created all them different in a perfect harmony.

Their differences would result in conflicts, first in the Music and then in Arda, but all those conflicts would finally be resolved according to Illuvatar's prime idea (whatever he had in mind when he called them to sing), because they are "harmonic conflicts".

Okay, this sounds very obscure, but I don't know how to put it clearer. What I wanted to say is that Eru hardly acts directly after the begining of Arda (though he does it sometimes) but I don't think this is the case).
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