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Old 12-12-2003, 07:25 PM   #1
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Gandalf CH. 17: "Of the Coming of Men into the West"

Migration of the Edain (map)



I was hoping that the system was going to show the map in the post, but it only puts a link he. The map shows the migration routes for each of the three peoples.

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Old 12-12-2003, 07:28 PM   #2
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Gandalf

Of Coming of Men into the West describes some of the first meetings of men and elves and the movement and settlement of men in the West. I have broken this chapter up into several sections and will describe each separately.

The Meeting of Finrod and Bëor

The chapter opens with Finrod Felagund lord of Nargothrond hunting with Fëanor’s sons Maglor and Maedros. After becoming tired of the “chase”, Finrod splits off and goes off on his own. He travels toward the mountains of Ered Lindon and takes the Dwarf-road, crossing the upper streams of Ascar and turing south, he ends up in northern Ossiriand where the Green-elves live.

In the distance, below the springs of Thalos, he sees lights and hears singing in the distance. Since the Green-elves do not light fires nor sing at night, he becomes curious as to who they might be. At first he fears it may be Orcs or possibly dwarves, but the singing is not in either of their languages. So standing in the trees and looking down on the camp he gets his first look at men.

For a while, Finrod watched them from a distance, listening to their singing and “love for them stirred in his heart.” It was not until they were asleep that he came forward. Sitting beside the dying fire, he took up a harp, which was lying there, and began to play.

Slowly the men awakened to the beautiful singing of Finrod and were amazed. They had never heard such beautiful singing before and their thoughts were filled with beauty and peace. Finrod sang of Arda and the bliss of Aman and the men saw these things as “clear visions”

Finrod Felgund was the first of the Eldar men had met and took to calling him Nóm which means “Wisdom” and his people Nómin which means “the Wise”. Men at first thought Finrod was one of the Valar who they had heard lived in the West.

Finrod stayed with them and taught them large amounts of knowledge. He also discovered he could read the thoughts of men which they were willing to reveal to him in speech. The language of men was easy for Finrod to understand, for much of it came from the Dark-elves who lived in the east and resembled Finrod’s own.

Balan was the leader of this band of men who journeyed west and were the first to enter Beleriand after wandering for many generations. They believed at last that they had escaped all peril and entered a land without fear.

When Finrod questioned the men about their journeys and the rising of men, they could tell him little. During the journey few tales were told and through the generations of traveling, the history was lost. “A darkness lies behind us,” Balan said; “and we have turned our backs upon it, and we do not desire to return thither even in thought. Westwards our hearts have been turned, and we believe that there we shall find light.”

But not all was right in Beleriand. Spies of Morgoth reported the coming of men to him. So great was his concern over this, that he himself set forth secretly from Angband to investigate. The Eldar knew nothing of the dealings between men and Morgoth, but they knew a darkness lay over men’s hearts. The chief desire of Morgoth was to corrupt any goodness, and in this, it seems to have been his desire to turn men against the Eldar and bring them up out of the east and go against Beleriand. But his goal was never achieved for men were too few and the closeness of elves and men grew stronger instead of being broken. Morgoth thus returned in fear to Angband, leaving only a few servants to keep an eye on the relationship developing between men and elves.

During Finrod’s time with men, he learned from Balan that there were many other tribes of men making their way westward. The Green-elves became troubled by this news and sent word to Finrod to take the men elsewhere saying, “Lord, if you have power over these newcomers, bid them return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folks are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.”

Upon hearing this from the Green-elves, Finrod adviced Balan to take his people and leave Ossiriand. Balan, along with Finrod, led his people across the River Gelion and settled in Amrod and Amras, east of Celon and south of Nan Elmoth along the borders of Doriath. This land they named Estolad which means “the Encampment”.

After spending a year with men in this new country, Finrod told Balan he was returning to his home in Nargothrond where he was king. Balan begged to go with him and to serve Finrod. This he did, leaving the care of his people in the hands of his eldest son Baran. Thus Balan got the commonly known name Bëor which means “Vassal”.

Thus ends the first meeting of men and the Eldar.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:29 PM   #3
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Gandalf

The Migration of the Edain

Soon after Bëor departed with Finrond, the other men of which he spoke started coming over the mountains. The Haladin were the first to make the journey after Bëor. Upon encountering the Green-elves, they turned northward and settled in Thargelion, which was ruled by Caranthir son of Fëanor.

The following year a tall and warlike people led by Marach, marched over the mountains into Ossiriand. At the sight of this group of men, the Green-elves hid themselves and let Marach’s people march on unhindered. Upon hearing the location of where Bëor’s people settled, Marach took the Dwarf-road and settled just east and south of them in Estolad. Through the ensuing years, a great friendship grew between the people of Marach and the people of Baran son of Bëor.

The coming of Men, or Atani as they were called in Valinor meaning the Second People, was foretold, and many elves, both Sindar and Noldor were excited to see them. In Beleriand the elves called them Edain, which was used only to describe the kindred of the first three groups of men, or Elf-friends, who traveled westward into Beleriand.

Fingolfin living in Hithlum and king of Noldor, welcomed the Edain. Many men went off to be in service to the Eldar. Malach son of Marach, was one of these, and he spent fourteen years in Hitlum and learned the Elven-tongue and was called Aradan by the elves.

Many men desired to continue on westward and were not satisfied with just remaining in Estolad, but they were unsure of the way. The Noldor upon hearing this and seeing how the strength of men would be a great asset against Morgoth, offered to let them live among their people. Thus began the great migration of men across Beleriand.

Over the course of fifty years, many thousands of Edain journeyed westward out of Estolad. First the groups were small, then whole families began to settle westward among the Kings of the Eldar. Most men traveled northward. Bëor’s own people settled in Dorthonion, the lands ruled by Finarfin. The people of Aradan son of Marach continued on further west and settled in Hithlum. Magor son of Aradan however, traveled down the Sirion and came to the vales of the southern sloped of Ered Wethrin.

Thingol, King of Doriath, was not pleased with the migration of men for several reasons. Only Findrod Felagund went and sought counsel with him and this displeased him. Thingol was also troubled by dreams about men and their migration. Because of this he commanded that men should only live in the north and the Elf-lords of those lands would be answerable for the men’s actions. In response to the migration of men, Thingol said, “Into Doriath shall no Man come while my realm lasts, not even those of the house of Bëor who serve Finrod the beloved.” Melian, his queen and a Maia who came to Middle-earth said to Galadriel, “Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Bëor’s house shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed.”
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:31 PM   #4
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Of Men and the Dark Lord

Many men continued to live in Estolad however and there started to be discontent. Along with some who wished to just remain, there were others who wished to go their own way and not be controlled by the Eldar who they feared. Morgoth’s influence may have come upon some of the men of Estolad, for he knew of the growing friendship between Elves and Men and was made afraid.

The two leaders in the discontent were Bereg of the house of Bëor and Amlach, a grandson of Marach. They complained about how men had traveled westward in search of peace and the “Light in the West”. But they now realize that the Light is beyond their reach across the sea. Beyond this sea the Gods dwell in peace, save one – the Dark Lord who lives among them in Middle-earth, whom the Eldar make constant war against. To the North, Morgoth lives and there lies the pain and death they tried to escape from the East. “We will not go that way.”

Then a great assembly of and then came together and the Elf-friends answered Bereg. They tried to explain to Bereg that their hardships came from the Dark Lord who wishes dominion over all of Middle-earth and asked where can they possibly go to escape him. “Unless he be vanquished here, or at least held in leaguer. Only by the valour of the Eldar is he restrained, and maybe it was for this purpose, to aid them at need, that we were brought into this land.”

Bereg responded that the Eldar should worry about Morgoth, since men’s lives were already short enough. But the words of Amlach son of Imlach were the most disturbing. For he accused the Eldar of making up the stories of a Dark Lord, and seeking dominion over Middle-earth. He then accused the Eldar of being greedy, saying, “Greedy for wealth they have delved in the earth for its secrets and have stirred to wrath the things that dwell beneath it, as they have ever done and ever shall. Let the Orcs have the realm that is theirs, and we will have ours. There is room in the world, if the Eldar will let us be!”

The words of Amlach drove fear into men and they chose to depart from the lands of the Eldar. Later though, Amlach recanted his words and denied ever having said them nor of even being at the debate. This puzzled the men greatly and the Elf-friends said, “You will now believe this at least: there is indeed a Dark Lord, and his spies and emissaries are among us; for he fears us and the strength that we may give to his foes.”

But many felt that it was their friendship with the elves that put them in danger and the only way to peace was to leave the land of the Eldar. Because of these feelings many prepared to depart Estolad. Bereg led a thousand of Bëor’s people southward and were forgotten. Amlach repented for what he said and declared, “I have now a quarrel of my own with this Master of Lies, which will last to my life’s end”. He traveled northward, in direct defiance to his statements in the counsel and went into the service of Maedros son of Fëanor. But those of his people who felt the same as Bereg, chose a new leader and they traveled back over the mountains in the east to Eriador and were lost from history.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:33 PM   #5
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The Haladin

During this time, the Haladin lived in peace in Thargelion. They lived separated homesteads and each handled their own affairs and were not ruled by a central lord.

Morgoth, emboldened by his success in Estolad and his desire to break the friendship between elves and men, sent out Orcs to raid the Haladin and cause them hardships and pain. The orcs came from the East and avoided the leaguer and came over the Ered Lindon, taking the Dwarf-road, where they attacked Haladin in the southern woods of Caranthir.

Because of the way they lived, the Haladin were slow to unite and rise up against the orcs. But Haldad, a masterful and fearless man, gathered brave men about him and lead them to the point where Ascar and Gelion meet and built a stockade connecting the two rivers. Here they led the all the women and children they could save. Fighting off the orcs, they were besieged until all their food was gone.

Haldad’s children included Haleth his daughter and Haldar his son who were twins. Both were valiant during the defense of their people. In addition, Haleth was strong and had a great heart. During the fighting Haldad was slain by the orcs and Haldar rushed to save his body from being butchered, but was himself struck down. Some of their people, feeling little hope, threw themselves into the river and drowned while Haleth held the others together. Seven days later, as the siege went on, the orcs broke through the stockade. From the distance the Haladin could hear trumpets and down came Caranthir with his army from the north to save them and he drove the orcs into the river.

Caranthir had a new appreciation for men and wanted to try making up to Haleth the loss of her father and brother. Seeing the valour of the Edain too late, he offered them refuge and protection in the north saying, ”If you will remove and dwell further north, there you shall have the friendship and protection of the Eldar, and free lands of your own.”

Haleth and the most of the other Haladin did not wish to be ruled by another and declined his offer saying, “My mind is now set, lord, to leave the shadow of the mountains, and go west, whither others of our kin have gone.” All the surviving Haladan thus gathered, some having escaped into the woods, and collected their belongings and named Haleth their leader. She then lead them westward into Estolad and there they stay for a short while.

Known as the People of Haleth, they stayed apart from Men and Elves, but soon Haleth chose to move westward again. Although many of her people were against the idea, they chose to follow her. Without guidance or help from the Eldar, they made their way northward through the perilous land between the Mountains of Terror and the Girdle of Melian. The Halandin experienced much loss and hardship on this journey and it was only by her sheer will and strength that she successfully led them. When they finally crossed over the Brithiach, the survivors bitterly hated their journey, but there was no way for them to go back now. They tried to go back to their old life in these new lands and they dwelt in free homesteads in the woods of Talath Dirnen beyong Teiglin, while some traveled south into the lands of Nargothrond, home of Finrod. There were many who still wished to follow wherever Lady Haleth led, for they loved her greatly, thus she led them to the Forest of Brethil between Teiglin and Sirion. To this place many of her scattered people would return when evil in later days would come upon them.

King Thingol laid claim to the forest, and as he declared he would have no man dwell in his realm and Haleth would have also been denied this, but for Finrod Felagund who told the King of her and her people’s hardship. Because of this and the friendship between Finrod and Thingol, the king allowed her and her people to dwell there so long as they protected the Crossings of Teiglin from all of the Eldar’s enemies and did not allow any orcs to enter the woods. Haleth answered, “Where are Haldad my father, and Haldor my brother? If the King of Doriath fears a friendship between Haleth and those who have devoured her kin, then the thoughts of the Eldar are strange to men.” Thus Haleth dwelt in Brethil until her death. At the time of her death, her people raised a green mound in the forest called Tur Haretha, the Ladybarrow, Haudh-en-Arwen in the Sindarian Tongue. The rule of her people then passed to her brother’s son, Haldan.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:37 PM   #6
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The Friendship of the Eldar and Edain

Thus the Edain dwelt in the land of the Eldar, some in small groups, some wondering, some in large groups, but they all for the most part learned the Grey-elven tongue, and they learned the elven lore. But after a time, the elf lords saw that the men needed rulers and land of their own and it was not good for men and elves to live so close together without order. Many Edain still wished to dwell among the elves, and many young men still wished to take up service with the elven lords, and this they did for as long as they were permitted. Men became allies of the elves, but had their own leaders to guide them in battle.

When Hador Lórindol, son of Hathol, son of Magor, son of Malach Aradan was young, he went into the service of Finrod and the king loved him. As a gift he bestowed lands on him and gave him lordship over Dor-Lómin, here he brought most of his people and became the greatest ruler of the Edain. Although the elven tongue was only spoken in the house of Hador, they did not forget their own speech that grew into the common speech of Númenor. The land of Ladros was given to the people of Bëor and the lordship went to Boromir, son of Boron, who was the grandson of Bëor the Old.

The descendants of the Edain became caught up in the affairs of the Edain and for all time their histories were remembered. The strength of the men and elves were combined to fight against the Dark Lord and Morgoth was confined for the men of Hador could endure the cold and long travels and were able to go up into the north to spy on Morgoth.

Thus the three houses of the Edain throve in the land of Beleriand and the greatest was the House of Hador Goldenhead. They were strong and tall, smart, bold and both easy to anger and make happy. They were Yellow-haired and blue eyed, but Túrin whose mother was Morwan from the house of Bëor. This branch had dark or brown hair and grey eyes and the Men were like the Noldor who loved them the most of all groups of men. They were eager to learn, easily understood things, had a good memory and more easily became sad than made happy. The people of Haleth of the woods, were very much like them, but were shorter and less interested in elven lore. They talked little and did not like to live in large groups. They took joy in solitude and enjoyed walking through the woods. But the time of joy in Beleriand was short.

The lives of men were lengthened in Belerian beyond what it used to be when they lived in the east. But at the age of 93 Bëor the Old died after serving 44 of his years in the house of King Felgund. For the first time the Eldar saw death from old age and to them the short life of man and the deterioration of the body. The elves grieved deeply for their lost friends. But Bëor went peacefully and the Eldar wondered at this, for they had little understanding of death and it was hard for them to comprehend.

But with the friendship of the Eldar and the Edain the men learned all they could and increased their knowledge and understanding far beyond the men who did not journey into the West. This has been the story of the Edain, the three houses of Elf-friends of who the Númenoreans were descended.
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Old 12-12-2003, 07:45 PM   #7
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Additional Readings

HoME 4 - The shaping of Middle-Earth:
The Qenta, Ch 9 + commentaries (very brief)
The earliest annals of Beleriand, from year 70 and onwards. (also very brief)
HoME 5 - The Lost Road:
The later Annals of Beleriand, from year 170 and onwards. (brief)
Quenta Silmarillion, Ch. 10: Of Men and Dwarfs
HoME 10 - Morgoth's Ring:
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. Especially the Tale of Adanel, which gives an account on what happened to Men before they entered Beleriand.
HoME 11 - The War of the Jewels:
The later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the coming of Men into the West. Note: Gives a detailed genealogy of the House of Bëor, the House of Hador, and Haleth's folk.
HoME 12 - The Peoples of Middle-Earth:
Ch. X: Of Dwarves and Men - (ii) The Atani and their languages.

The New Tolkien Companion - J.E.A. Tyler

Thanks to Artanis for supply The History of Middle-Earth information.


Discussion Points

1) It mentions that Finrod, when he comes on Men for the first time, that he hears singing. It then mentions that he thought they may be orcs, but it is not their speech and he does not recognize it. Do you think that Orcs would be singing around a fire?

2) Now when the chapter begins, Finrod and his companions were hunting, but it doesn't mention what they were hunting. Were they hunting orcs, or were they hunting stags or other animals?

3) When Finrod first talks to men he is amazed that he can read the minds of men. Now is he amazed because men are a different race than elves and he can read their thoughts, or is it that they never tried to do it before and found it easier with men and then discovered they had this power?

4) The Elves of Ossiriand do not want men living in their land because of they say men are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts. If Finrod was hunting aimals and since other elves did eat meat, are the Green-elves just being prejudice against men? Or is it that they don't want to have hunting on their land?

5) Green-elves seemed to hardly have any outside contact except among their own. What was up with the the Green-elves, were they shy, arrogant or isolationists?

6) Amlach initially goes into the council of men and denounces the elves, but later repents and says that he was not even at the meeting. Now was he actually there and hypnotized by Morgoth? Or did Morgoth possibly send someone/something else there to pretend to be him? or is there some other explanation?

7) At the end of the chapter it mentions how the Eldar reacted to the death of Bëor. I don't think that Elves knew that men would just die from no cause such as Bëor from strictly old age. The Eldar did know that they lived a brief life, but do you think they knew that man could die from no cause other than old age?

8) I was curious what people think is meant by "...and its end was hidden from them."? The way I take this is that the "afterlife" of man was hidden from elves and this might have been puzzling since their own life and death experiences were so open to themselves.

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Old 12-15-2003, 11:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ilúvatar
1) It mentions that Finrod, when he comes on Men for the first time, that he hears singing. It then mentions that he thought they may be orcs, but it is not their speech and he does not recognize it. Do you think that Orcs would be singing around a fire?
In The Hobbit:
Quote:
Now there came a glimmer of a red light before them. The goblins began to sing, or croak, keeping time with the flap of their flat feet on the stone, and shaking their prisoners as well.

Clap! Snap! the black crack!
Grip, grab! Pinch, nab!
And down down to Goblin-town
You go, my lad!

Clash, crash! Crush, smash!
Hammer and tongs! Knocker and gongs!
Pound, pound, far underground!
Ho, ho! my lad!

Swish, smack! Whip crack!
Batter and beat! Yammer and bleat!
Work, work! Nor dare to shirk,
While Goblins quaff, and Goblins laugh,
Round and round far underground
Below, my lad!
Hehe it's a funny song, don't you think?

We may doubt that it's a true orc song. Possibly it was invented by Bilbo (I don't think he was able to understand orc-spech anyway ) But we also may assume that there may be some truth behind that fake song: Bilbo possibly heard the orcs-goblins sing something quite "terrifying" and horrible.

Overanalysing the question we could ask why Finrod thought they may be orcs even if he knew it was not orc-speech. There should be something in common between orc-singing and human-singing.

Reading the orc song from the Hobbit it seems that their singing could be horrible, but it may not be very melodical, but it was probably very rhythmical. Perhaps what Finrod appreciate in the human singing was the rhythm.
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:48 AM   #9
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3) When Finrod first talks to men he is amazed that he can read the minds of men. Now is he amazed because men are a different race than elves and he can read their thoughts, or is it that they never tried to do it before and found it easier with men and then discovered they had this power?
I think that his amazement doesn't come from a difference he could find in their minds but from the similarity he found in their minds.
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Old 12-16-2003, 02:30 PM   #10
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I chose to ignore the the goblins singing in The Hobbit because between Lord of the Rings, the Silmarillion and The Hobbit, they were very different. The Hobbit they were cartoonish and aren't comparable to the other two books.
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Old 12-16-2003, 03:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
2) Now when the chapter begins, Finrod and his companions were hunting, but it doesn't mention what they were hunting. Were they hunting orcs, or were they hunting stags or other animals?
I think they were hunting animals. This was during the long period of peace, while the Siege still lasted, before the Bragollach.

Quote:
3) When Finrod first talks to men he is amazed that he can read the minds of men.
Not exactly, he can read in their minds what they wished to reveal in speech, which is somewhat different.

What amazes me in this description of the meeting between Finrod and Men, is the music:
Quote:
Now men awoke and listened to Felagund as he harped and sang, and each thought that he was in some fair dream, until he saw that his fellows were awake also beside him; but they did not speak or stir while Felagund still played, because of the beauty of the music and the wonder of the song. Wisdom was in the words of the Elven-king, and the hearts grew wiser that hearkened to him; for the things of which he sang, of the making of Arda, and the bliss of Aman beyond the shadows of the Sea, came as clear visions before their eyes, and his Elvish speech was interpreted in each mind according to its measure.
It reminds me of the description of the music that was played in the Hall of Fire in Rivendell. Frodo's experience in LotR:
Quote:
At first the beauty of the melodies and of the interwoven words in elven-tongues, even though he understood them little, held him in a spell, as soon as he began to attend to them. Almost it seemed that the words took shape, and visions of far lands and bright things that he had never yet imagined opened out before him; and the firelit hall became like a golden mist above seas of foam that sighed upon the margins of the world. Then the enchantment became more and more dreamlike, until he felt that an endless river of swelling gold and silver was flowing over him, too multitudinous for its pattern to be comprehended; it became part of the throbbing air about him, and it drenched and drowned him. Swiftly he sank under its shining weight into a deep realm of sleep.
Now, if Finrod and the people in Rivendell could play music like this, how wonderful wouldn't it be then, to listen to Daeron, or Makalaurë?
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Old 12-16-2003, 03:55 PM   #12
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Originally posted by Ilúvatar
4) The Elves of Ossiriand do not want men living in their land because of they say men are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts. If Finrod was hunting aimals and since other elves did eat meat, are the Green-elves just being prejudice against men? Or is it that they don't want to have hunting on their land?

5) Green-elves seemed to hardly have any outside contact except among their own. What was up with the the Green-elves, were they shy, arrogant or isolationists?
I think they just wanted to live in peace. They had seen war once, in the first battle in Beleriand, when they suffered heavy losses in aiding Thingol against the orcs. After that incident they retreated. They seem to have been much alike the people of Thranduil in Greenwood.
Quote:
7) At the end of the chapter it mentions how the Eldar reacted to the death of Bëor. I don't think that Elves knew that men would just die from no cause such as Bëor from strictly old age. The Eldar did know that they lived a brief life, but do you think they knew that man could die from no cause other than old age?
I don't think they knew anything about Men before they met them. They certainly didn't know about the death of weariness and old age, before Bëor died.

It is funny to notice that Men was the main 'tourist attraction' of Estolad for some time. I wonder why the Haladin were of so little interest to Caranthir and his people. Arrogance, you said?

Quote:
8) I was curious what people think is meant by "...and its end was hidden from them."? The way I take this is that the "afterlife" of man was hidden from elves and this might have been puzzling since their own life and death experiences were so open to themselves.
I agree that it is about the afterlife. That is, where the spirits of Men go after their brief sojourn with Mandos.
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Old 12-16-2003, 04:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
It is funny to notice that Men was the main 'tourist attraction' of Estolad for some time. I wonder why the Haladin were of so little interest to Caranthir and his people. Arrogance, you said?
But it wasn't the Green-elves who were interested in them. Some did seem arrogant, such as Thingol and possibly the Green-elves.
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Old 12-16-2003, 05:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ilúvatar
But it wasn't the Green-elves who were interested in them. Some did seem arrogant, such as Thingol and possibly the Green-elves.
I think you misunderstand me. Bad wording on my side, perhaps. I meant Caranthir seemed arrogant.
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Old 12-16-2003, 05:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
I think you misunderstand me. Bad wording on my side, perhaps. I meant Caranthir seemed arrogant.
Yeah, I did misunderstand you. I thought you meant you didn't see how I could consider them arrogant.

But yes, I can see what you mean now, men as the circus side show for the elves.
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Old 12-16-2003, 09:30 PM   #16
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"6) Amlach initially goes into the council of men and denounces the elves, but later repents and says that he was not even at the meeting. Now was he actually there and hypnotized by Morgoth? Or did Morgoth possibly send someone/something else there to pretend to be him? or is there some other explanation?"

Many of the minor mair and some other creatures (werewolves) in Morgoths service used shape shifting. Somewhere (Myths transformed?) mention such as taking the from of exceptionally strong orcs in order to lead them. We have Sauron as the lord of werewolves. There is the phantom that imitated Gorlim's Wife. We here of Morgoths agents sowing distrust among his enemies, likely much of this was done by disguised agents.
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:20 AM   #17
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Theoden

Iluvatar, I loved that map! Very helpful!!! I definitely need to re-read 'Silmarillion' so I can get something out of this big project you folks are doing here! I probably also (when reading Tolkien in general) need to make lots of copies of maps and mark them up as I read - to help keep track of where exactly everyone is and is going!
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Old 12-19-2003, 03:22 PM   #18
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When I read this chapter again I was stricken once more by Thingol's unfriendliness. Why won't he let the Edain live in the forests of his land, as long as they stay outside the girdle? It doesn't make sense.
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Old 12-19-2003, 06:07 PM   #19
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Bravo Ilúvatar. Your intro was amazing.

Quote:
2) Now when the chapter begins, Finrod and his companions were hunting, but it doesn't mention what they were hunting. Were they hunting orcs, or were they hunting stags or other animals?
Probably animals as stated before but I would think that Maitimo Russandol would be hunting for Orcs too.

Quote:
3) When Finrod first talks to men he is amazed that he can read the minds of men. Now is he amazed because men are a different race than elves and he can read their thoughts, or is it that they never tried to do it before and found it easier with men and then discovered they had this power?
Sounds like Ósanwe-kenta to me. From Ósanwe-kenta
Quote:
At the end of the Lammas Pengolodh discusses briefly direct thought-transmission (sanwe-latya "thought-opening"), making several assertions about it, which are evidently dependent upon theories and observations of the Eldar elsewhere treated at length by Elvish loremasters. They are concerned primarily with the Eldar and the Valar (including the lesser Maiar of the same order). Men are not specially considered, except in so far as they are included in general statements about the Incarnates (Mirröanwi). Of them Pengolodh says only: "Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hröa, over which most men have small control by the will".
Pengolodh says that all minds (sáma, pl. sámar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength. A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties (Note 1). The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply "open" (láta; látie "openness"). This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance.
It can be said that the minds of those men was in a state of openness which allowed FF to actually understand them.

Quote:
The Elves of Ossiriand do not want men living in their land because of they say men are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts. If Finrod was hunting aimals and since other elves did eat meat, are the Green-elves just being prejudice against men? Or is it that they don't want to have hunting on their land?
Don't you think that Thingol of Doriath has a similar approach regarding Men?

Quote:
8) I was curious what people think is meant by "...and its end was hidden from them."? The way I take this is that the "afterlife" of man was hidden from elves and this might have been puzzling since their own life and death experiences were so open to themselves.
Actually, elves were terrified at what would happen at the End of Arda.
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth
Quote:
'Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. Beyond the day when he shall blow the mort, we have no certainty, no knowledge. And no one speaks to us of hope.'
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 12-20-2003, 06:42 PM   #20
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Very nicely done intro Iluvatar. I would like to extend my appreciation to Illuvatar for taking the re-assignment. It was originally my chapter, but he did a much better job than I could have.
Quote:
1) It mentions that Finrod, when he comes on Men for the first time, that he hears singing. It then mentions that he thought they may be orcs, but it is not their speech and he does not recognize it. Do you think that Orcs would be singing around a fire?
That is kind of funny.

Quote:
2) Now when the chapter begins, Finrod and his companions were hunting, but it doesn't mention what they were hunting. Were they hunting orcs, or were they hunting stags or other animals?
I have always been under the impression that the Noldor of all Elves were meat eaters. I thought they may be hunting for deer, or wild boar.

Quote:
3) When Finrod first talks to men he is amazed that he can read the minds of men. Now is he amazed because men are a different race than elves and he can read their thoughts, or is it that they never tried to do it before and found it easier with men and then discovered they had this power?
Well, I think the Elves, especially the Exiles had a telepathic type ability. They could speak mind to mind with other Elves, so since the minds of Men were not really as complex as the Elven mind, this was probably an easy thing for Finrod to do. I don't think he just discovered he had this power.

Quote:
4) The Elves of Ossiriand do not want men living in their land because of they say men are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts. If Finrod was hunting aimals and since other elves did eat meat, are the Green-elves just being prejudice against men? Or is it that they don't want to have hunting on their land?
Well, I think they were not hunters of beasts or hewers of trees, but It says that they did not wish to have any strangers disrupt the peace in which they lived. The hunting and hewing seemed to be a secondary complaint.

Quote:
5) Green-elves seemed to hardly have any outside contact except among their own. What was up with the the Green-elves, were they shy, arrogant or isolationists?
It seems isolationists would fit.

Quote:
6) Amlach initially goes into the council of men and denounces the elves, but later repents and says that he was not even at the meeting. Now was he actually there and hypnotized by Morgoth? Or did Morgoth possibly send someone/something else there to pretend to be him? or is there some other explanation?
It would seem that originally he was against the Elves and the Men that were Elf-friends. It seems vague, but apparently something happened to him between that meeting and the time that he has this change of heart. He seems to have had some terrible encounter with Morgoth at some point. I need to re-read that part.

Quote:
7) At the end of the chapter it mentions how the Eldar reacted to the death of Bëor. I don't think that Elves knew that men would just die from no cause such as Bëor from strictly old age. The Eldar did know that they lived a brief life, but do you think they knew that man could die from no cause other than old age?
Well, I can't think they were'nt aware that Men could die of old age before Beor's death. Afterall, Beor served Finrod for 44 years. They must have seen him aging. I would think the Elves more than anyone were aware of that, especially since they themselves later did everything they could to ward off the effects of time. I think though, that they were very surprised to find that Men could relinquish their lives willingly

Quote:
8) I was curious what people think is meant by "...and its end was hidden from them."? The way I take this is that the "afterlife" of man was hidden from elves and this might have been puzzling since their own life and death experiences were so open to themselves.
I agree. The Elves were tied to the world, but Men were not. I think they may have feared their own end and were very curious as to what became of the fea of Men after death. In a way that turns the mortality tables, doesn't it? That in the end, Men were truely immortal, and the Elves die when the world dies. That is why the discussion in Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth is so interesting. The idea that Finrod has a hope that Elves and Men will be together in Arda Re-made, as he tells Andreth to await him and Aegnor there.
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