Entmoot
 


Go Back   Entmoot > J.R.R. Tolkien > The Silmarillion > The Silmarillion Project
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-28-2003, 05:13 PM   #1
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 847
Chapter 18: "On the ruin of Beleriand and the fall of Fingolfin"

Synopsis

The chapter starts with Morgoth under siege in the fortified area, and the Noldorin Princes except for Fingolfin, Angrod, and Aegnor, lulled into security and comfort in the four century old kingdoms. Morgoth is so ticked off at this point, that he not only want to defeat the Noldor and take their Kingdoms, but also “to destroy and defile the lands that they had taken and made fair”.

He has the strategic advantages of central position, and lack one of the disadvantages, having a wide back door for communications and supply. He launches his battle, starting with a devastating technological surprise attack, the sudden flame, incinerating the close besiegers and the support on the Ard-galen, eliminating a large part of the full time and best warrior of the Noldor. The fires thus generated also disorganize the perimeter defenses of Dorthonion when the forest on the forward slopes of this plateau are ignited. The rest of the besieging armies and their support are swept from the plain (soon to be called Anfauglith {the choking dust}), by Morgoth’s armies, lead by Glaurung and the Balrogs. Vast armies of Orcs are mentioned. Presumably there are also troll, wargs, werewolves, and other forces, but they are not expressly mentioned. The Noldor are driven back to their fortified hill and mountain chains defending their kingdoms.
With clear strategy he severs communication between the wings of Noldorin forces by first destroying Dorthonion and Ladros, in the center. This means that the remaining power centers of the Noldor and their Allies are separated by many miles of enemy territory. Much of this isolation is only because of Thingol’s obstruction; refusing to coordinated Morgoth policy with the Noldor and their allies, and barring them from traveling through Doriath, and because of the horror of the Nan Dungorthreb.
Barahir saves Finrod, who makes his oath of gratitude and succor.
In the east, The pass of Aglon is forced and Celegorm and Curufin lose their lands and flee to Nargothrond, of all places. The Oathtakers’ forces are driven from the plains of Lothlann, Maglor’s gap, Mt Rerir, Lake Helevorn, and Thargelion, and East Beleriand between Thargelion and Doriath. Maglor joins Maedhros upon Himring, as do various other displace forces. Amrod, Amras, and Caranthir retreat south to Amon Ereb and hold there.
The high king Fingolfin goes berserk with rage and despair, and shining so much of his blazing spirit through, that what enemies he encounters flee, rides to the Gates of Angband, duels Morgoth, wounding him, and is slain. Fingon is now high King.
The remaining warriors of the first house of the Edain fight guerilla warfare, in Dorthonion, being driven back into its wilder areas, , and their women and children flee through the mountains to Brethil and Dor-Lomin.
Two years later, Sauron leads an army against the pass of Sirion and Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion, drives out Orodreth and takes it, using, it is implied, much sorcery. Using the passes open to him, he send raiding parties, spies, and covert agents into Beleriand. He has suffered so many casualties, that he cannot continued into Beleriand by main force and mass armies.
Morgoth summons men from east of the Ered Luin, and other come as well.. They ally with the Oathtakers, some are loyal, some not.
The Haladin and with aid from Doriath smack down an orc army in Northern Brethil, and stem the dark advance there. Maedhros manages to seal of the Pass of Aglon again.
Hurin and Huor, young princes of the Dor-Lomin, were in Brethil under the care of their uncle, Halmir Lord of the Haladin, at this time. While fighting the Orcs north of Brethil, they were cut off and driven across the Sirion into Dimbar. From here they were rescued by the Eagles and taken to Gondolin, and were taken into King Turgon’s household. After about a year Turgon released them under pledge of secrecy, and the eagles took them to Dor-Lomin. Some guess at their adventure and rumors reach Morgoth.
Turgon attempts to send messengers to Valinor, but the can not penetrate the enchantments defending it. Morgoth recalls his main forces for rebuilding and send forth yet more spies, in particular seeking information on Finrod’s and Turgon’s Kingdoms.
7 years after the Bragollach, Morgoth attacks Hithlum from the east and from the north, but is driven back with heavy loss by Hurin and Fingon, with aid from Cirdan.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-29-2003 at 06:19 PM.
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2003, 05:15 PM   #2
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 847
Additional Readings

There are many spots in HoME covering this period of the Silmarillion, but no significant additional detail of information is in them, save that which was superceded, and little is quoted here.
HoME
  • IV The Shaping of Middle Earth:
  • The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’: sec 9
  • The Quenta: chap 9
  • The Earliest Annals of Beleriand: years 155 thru 158 & 163

    V The Lost Road:
  • The Later Annals of Beleriand: years 255 thru 258 & 263
  • Quenta Silmarillion: chap 11

    XI The War of the Jewels:
  • The Gray Annals: years 455 thru 458 (sec 145 thru 166) and 462 - 463 (sec 170 - 174)
Note the similar chronologies in the various annals with just the additional centuries added. The Principal development from the earliest to the middle was the addition of more Noldorin princes and their roles, and changing Beren from Ikorian (Sindarin) to mortal; from the middle to the late the principal changes were adding more generations of Edain and working on their genealogy.
My favorite part of all the HoME is the Lay of Leithian in III The lays of Beleriand, and I will quote its lines 3538 thru 3606 (68 lines) about Fingolfin’s duel Morgoth with in a later post.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-29-2003 at 06:15 PM.
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2003, 05:17 PM   #3
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 847
Discussion Topics

1. Why are the Noldorin Princes other than Fingolfin, Angrod & Aegnor ( the Athrabeth suggest than Finrod is possibly aligned with these 3 on this issue), most particularly the 7 Oathtakers, not more concerned with prosecuting the war against Morgoth? The raison de etre of the Oathtakers should be fighting Morgoth and getting the jewels. Why are they sitting on their asses in manor halls or on hunting horses? They do not even have wives with them (4 unmarried and Curufin’s wife stayed in Valinor, and we do not know if Maglor’s or Caranthir’s wives came the ME). All with Elven wisdom should recognize that Morgoth is gather strength from the rest of Middle Earth, and that his military power will grow faster than theirs. Why not are these brilliant Noldor using all the super craft to make siege and assault engines to deal hard blows to Angband before it grows yet stronger (cursed as the Noldor are, without believing it, to ultimate defeat)?

2. How are the Noldor who need little sleep (see Legolas in LoTR) and have such heightened senses so badly surprised by the Sudden Flame “The watchfires burned low. and the guards were few, on the plain few were waking in the camps of the Horseman of Hithlum” Huh? theses are Elves who on campaign can march day and night with indefinitely with an hour of sleep a day, in the camps of Fingolfin (and likely Angrod and Aegnor) who suspect something is up. Has some unmentioned spell of “Ignore the danger and kill me please” be placed upon them? They are acting like the AI in a cheap computer game.

3. What is the nature of the Sudden flame that can outrun Elves on their super horses descended of Valinorian stock?

4. Other than for dramatic effect, why do Celegorm and Curufin flee the long way to Nargothrond, rather tan to the other Feanorians who are closer.

5. Does Thingol really believe that the power of Melian can hold out indefinitely against the power of Morgoth or his chief Maiar lieutenants? She is a gardening angel for heavens sake. Only mutual support with the other Eldarin Kingdoms has any apparent long term chance for security.

6. Everyone who would give much to have seen Fingolfin riding across the Anfauglisth ablaze with such personal power, than no enemy could hinder him from reaching Angband’s gates, raise your right hand.

7. Why does Morgoth so disdain human servants that he does not have armies of men attacking from the east at the same time he pours armies of orcs, trolls, wargs, etc out of the north. Heck, even the very arrogant Oathtakers can stomach allying with them.

8. Is Sauron’s assault on Minas Tirith more a military one, or more a sorcerous one?

9. Are those First house of the Edain warriors tough bad asses or what? They are going to bleed those stinking orcs and whatever of Morgoth for every inch of their ground. A do not forget their women, successfully passing the fringes of the Ered Gorgorth and Nan Dungorthred.

10. How much do you think Ulmo, or higher power, is behind Hurin and Huor being lost and driven towards Gondolin.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-29-2003 at 10:22 AM.
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2003, 04:51 PM   #4
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Re: Additional Readings

Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
My favorite part of all the HoME is the Lay of Leithian in III The lays of Beleriand, and I will quote its lines 3538 thru 3606 (68 lines) about Fingolfin’s duel Morgoth with in a later post.
I'll spare you the work if you don't mind, since it is also one of my favourites (lines 3538 thru 3631):
Quote:
In that vast shadow once of yore
Fingolfin stood: his shield he bore
with field of heaven's blue and star
of crystal shining pale afar.
In overmastering wrath and hate
desperate he smote upon that gate,
the Gnomish king, there standing lone,
while endless fortresses of stone
engulfed the thin clear ringing keen
of silver horn on baldric green.
His hopeless challenge dauntless cried
Fingolfin there: 'Come, open wide,
dark king, your ghastly brazen doors!
Come forth, whom earth and heaven abhors!
Come forth, 0 monstrous craven lord,
and fight with thine own hand and sword,
thou wielder of hosts of banded thralls,
thou tyrant leaguered with strong walls,
thou foe of Gods and elvish race!
I wait thee here. Come! Show thy face! '

Then Morgoth came. For the last time
in those great wars he dared to climb
from subterranean throne profound,
the rumour of his feet a sound
of rumbling earthquake underground.
Black-armoured, towering, iron-crowned
he issued forth; his mighty shield
a vast unblazoned sable field
with shadow like a thundercloud;
and o'er the gleaming king it bowed,
as huge aloft like mace he hurled
that hammer of the underworld,
Grond. Clanging to ground it tumbled
down like a thunder-bolt, and crumbled
the rocks beneath it; smoke up-started,
a pit yawned, and a fire darted.

Fingolfin like a shooting light
beneath a cloud, a stab of white,
sprang then aside, and Ringil drew
like ice that gleameth cold and blue,
his sword devised of elvish skill
to pierce the flesh with deadly chill.
With seven wounds it rent his foe,
and seven mighty cries of woe
rang in the mountains, and the earth quook,
and Angband's trembling armies shook.
Yet Orcs would after laughing tell
of the duel at the gates of hell;
though elvish song thereof was made
ere this but one - when sad was laid
the mighty king in barrow high,
and Thorndor, Eagle of the sky,
the dreadful tidings brought and told
to mourning Elfinesse of old.
Thrice was Fingolfin with great blows
to his knees beaten, thrice he rose
still leaping up beneath the cloud
aloft to hold star-shining, proud,
his stricken shield, his sundered helm,
that dark nor might could overwhelm
till all the earth.was burst and rent
in pits about him. He was spent.
His feet stumbled. He fell to wreck
upon the ground, and on his neck
a foot like rooted hills was set,
and he was crushed - not conquered yet;
one last despairing stroke he gave:
the mighty foot pale Ringil clave
about the heel, and black the blood
gushed as from smoking fount in flood.
Halt goes for ever from that stroke
great Morgoth; but the king he broke,
and would have hewn and mangled thrown
to wolves devouring. Lo! from throne
that Manwe bade him build on high,
on peak unscaled beneath the sky,
Morgoth to watch, now down there swooped
Thorndor the King of Eagles, stooped,
and rending beak of gold he smote
in Bauglir's face, then up did float
on pinions thirty fathoms wide
bearing away, though loud they cried,
the mighty corse, the Elven-king;
and where the mountains make a ring
far to the south about that plain
where after Gondolin did reign,
embattled city, at great height
upon a dizzy snowcap white
in mounded cairn the mighty dead
he laid upon the mountain's head.
Never Orc nor demon after dared
that pass to climb, o'er which there stared
Fingolfin's high and holy tomb,
till Gondolin's appointed doom.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.

Last edited by Artanis : 12-29-2003 at 04:54 PM.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2003, 05:02 PM   #5
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Lefty, this is brilliant.

At the moment I don't know how to comment, I need to re-read the chapter first.

Oh, but yes, I'm raising my right hand!
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2003, 05:54 PM   #6
Maedhros
The Tall
 
Maedhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
Quote:
Why are the Noldorin Princes other than Fingolfin, Angrod & Aegnor ( the Athrabeth suggest than Finrod is possibly aligned with these 3 on this issue), most particularly the 7 Oathtakers, not more concerned with prosecuting the war against Morgoth? The raison de etre of the Oathtakers should be fighting Morgoth and getting the jewels. Why are they sitting on their asses in manor halls or on hunting horses? They do not even have wives with them (4 unmarried and Curufin’s wife stayed in Valinor, and we do not know if Maglor’s or Caranthir’s wives came the ME). All with Elven wisdom should recognize that Morgoth is gather strength from the rest of Middle Earth, and that his military power will grow faster than theirs. Why not are these brilliant Noldor using all the super craft to make siege and assault engines to deal hard blows to Angband before it grows yet stronger (cursed as the Noldor are, without believing it, to ultimate defeat)?
I always thougth that it was a little odd. I wonder if Maitimo would be against such an attack.

Quote:
2. How are the Noldor who need little sleep (see Legolas in LoTR) and have such heightened senses so badly surprised by the Sudden Flame “The watchfires burned low. and the guards were few, on the plain few were waking in the camps of the Horseman of Hithlum” Huh? theses are Elves who on campaign can march day and night with indefinitely with an hour of sleep a day, in the camps of Fingolfin (and likely Angrod and Aegnor) who suspect something is up. Has some unmentioned spell of “Ignore the danger and kill me please” be placed upon them? They are acting like the AI in a cheap computer game.
Consider the sudden attack at the impenetrable Gondolin, who had also the watch of the eagles, and they were taken entirely by surprise.


Quote:
4. Other than for dramatic effect, why do Celegorm and Curufin flee the long way to Nargothrond, rather tan to the other Feanorians who are closer.
Basically because at first it was Celegorm and Curufin the ones who founded Nargothrond.

Quote:
. Does Thingol really believe that the power of Melian can hold out indefinitely against the power of Morgoth or his chief Maiar lieutenants? She is a gardening angel for heavens sake. Only mutual support with the other Eldarin Kingdoms has any apparent long term chance for security.
The conclusion from that is that Thingol is a moron. Plain and simple.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
Maedhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2003, 06:13 PM   #7
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 847
4. Yeah I was aware that in the oldest version that Celgorm and Curufin were founders of Nargothrond, fleeing there after fighting in the Pass of Siron, but once the family divisions were established, and they were moved over to Himlad and Aglon, it does not make sense anymore. What I was looking for was an inside story logic/rationale/motivation (made by the reader of course) to explain their action, rather than an outside "JRRT did not get around to revising that part" reason.

Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-29-2003 at 06:14 PM.
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2003, 06:20 PM   #8
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 847
Re: Re: Additional Readings

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
I'll spare you the work if you don't mind,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2003, 09:46 PM   #9
Tuor of Gondolin
Elf Lord
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
I'd like to drop in to make a few observations here on:
"1. Why are the Noldorin Princes other than Fingolfin, Angrod & Aegnor ( the Athrabeth suggest than Finrod is possibly aligned with these 3 on this issue), most particularly the 7 Oathtakers, not more concerned with prosecuting the war against Morgoth?"
_________________________________________-
Perhaps the essential reason is psychological. Elves are biologically, and presumably also mentally, identical to men. So one could imagine that throughout their time in Beleriand they, consciously and subconsciously, replayed the curse (Prophecy of the North) and, whether they could admit it or not, realized that they couldn't prevail by themselves in time. Hence:
Quote:
...because the land was fair and their kingdoms wide, most of the Noldor were content with things as they were, trusting them to last, and slow to begin the assault in which many must surely perish were it in victory or in defeat. Therefore they were little disposed to hearken to Fingolfin, and the sons of Feanor at that time least of all.
It's somewhat reminiscent of the views of the people and leadership in France and Great Britain in the 1930s as Germany was getting stronger and more aggressive.

2.
________________________________________
"Why are these brilliant Noldor not using all the super craft to make siege and assault engines to deal hard blows to Angband before it grows yet stronger (cursed as the Noldor are, without believing it, to ultimate defeat)?"
________________________________________
And, given that elves are resistant to cold and snow, why didn't they make more of an effort to use their "super craft" to really invest Angband in the north and probe for ways into the fortress (like Morgoth's attack on Gondolin in reverse), doing more then the occasional patrols I believe they sent.
__________________
Democrat for Kerry-Edwards!

Take Back America

Aure entuluva!
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 03:00 AM   #10
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Re: Discussion Topics

Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
1. Why are the Noldorin Princes other than Fingolfin, Angrod & Aegnor ( the Athrabeth suggest than Finrod is possibly aligned with these 3 on this issue), most particularly the 7 Oathtakers, not more concerned with prosecuting the war against Morgoth? ....
Good question. I agree with ToG in what he said, and would like to add another theory: The Ñoldor had rebelled gainst the Valar, and they had suffered a lot in order to come to Beleriand, so perhaps the average Ñoldor most likely would prefer to see their actions justified. And for 400 years it has seemed justified. It's the position of "we're quite happy as we are and don't want to be bothered with unpleasant news, thank you very much".

Yes, it does resemble pre WW2.

But this of course doesn't explain why Fëanor's magnificent 7 don't put more effort into the task of their life: To regain the Silmarils.

Rusco, why do you think Maitimo was against it?

Quote:
4. Other than for dramatic effect, why do Celegorm and Curufin flee the long way to Nargothrond, rather than to the other Feanorians who are closer.
I would have answered like Maedhros. But if I were pressed to come up with a reason of my own, I would say that a comfortable life as hidden refugees in Nargothrond was more appealing to those villain bros than continuing the fight along with their kin in the eastern lands.
Quote:
6. Everyone who would give much to have seen Fingolfin riding across the Anfauglisth ablaze with such personal power, than no enemy could hinder him from reaching Angband’s gates, raise your right hand.
I already did. But I would have given more to see Maitimo as he's described (Quenta Silmarillion):
Quote:
Maidros the chief of Feanor's sons did deeds of surpassing valour, and the Orcs could not endure the light of his face; for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returneth from the dead, keen and terrible; and they fled before him.
In this both Fingolfin and Maitimo show their close kinship to Fëanor, don't they.
Quote:
9. Are those First house of the Edain warriors tough bad asses or what? They are going to bleed those stinking orcs and whatever of Morgoth for every inch of their ground. A do not forget their women, successfully passing the fringes of the Ered Gorgorth and Nan Dungorthred.
I don't consider this a question, but a mere statement of fact.
Quote:
10. How much do you think Ulmo, or higher power, is behind Hurin and Huor being lost and driven towards Gondolin.
Difficult to say, but I think it's likely that Ulmo had planned those bros to be crucial for the future events, or if it wasn't his plan at least he knew enough to know what their role would be.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.

Last edited by Artanis : 12-30-2003 at 12:27 PM.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 11:40 AM   #11
Maedhros
The Tall
 
Maedhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
Quote:
Rusco, why do you think Maitimo was against it?
Gut feeling.
Quote:
I already did. But I would have given more to see Maitimo as he's described (Quenta Silmarillion):
Wohoooooooooo.
Now there is someone who has excellent taste.
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
Maedhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2003, 05:27 PM   #12
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Quote:
Originally posted by Maedhros
Wohoooooooooo.
Now there is someone who has excellent taste.

I've loved that description of Maitimo since I first read it.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2003, 07:27 AM   #13
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Re: Discussion Topics

Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
5. Does Thingol really believe that the power of Melian can hold out indefinitely against the power of Morgoth or his chief Maiar lieutenants? She is a gardening angel for heavens sake. Only mutual support with the other Eldarin Kingdoms has any apparent long term chance for security.
Well, the girdle did hold all evil out of Doriath until the Silmaril came into Thingol's possession, and then it was only his own lust for that jewel and his own unwise behaviour that brought his realm to ruin. Of course I also agree that he was a fool for not building alliances with the Ñoldorian kingdoms, and for not taking part in any of the great battles.
Quote:
7. Why does Morgoth so disdain human servants that he does not have armies of men attacking from the east at the same time he pours armies of orcs, trolls, wargs, etc out of the north. Heck, even the very arrogant Oathtakers can stomach allying with them.
I'm not sure, but maybe we should remember that it was the most valiant and strongest of Men who had entered Beleriand, the Edain, who had had the guts to stand up to Morgoth. I would guess that the remaining Men were weaker, and could not be much use in a war.
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2003, 07:51 AM   #14
Falagar
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
 
Falagar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,870
Re: Re: Discussion Topics

Quote:
Originally posted by Artanis
I'm not sure, but maybe we should remember that it was the most valiant and strongest of Men who had entered Beleriand, the Edain, who had had the guts to stand up to Morgoth. I would guess that the remaining Men were weaker, and could not be much use in a war.
I think it is also possible that not all of them had allied with the Morgoth. There were also Elves and Dwarves on the other side of the Ered Luin, so I don't think he had full control.
__________________
Fëanor - Innocence incarnated
Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

Last edited by Falagar : 12-31-2003 at 07:57 AM.
Falagar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2003, 03:31 PM   #15
Rían
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Rían's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,141
Thanks, Lefty, for your summary, and I raise my right hand and jump up and down!

And thanks for the section from Lays, Artanis - that part is so beautiful and stirring. I love Fingolfin's challenge:

"'Come, open wide, dark king, your ghastly brazen doors!
Come forth, whom earth and heaven abhors!
Come forth, 0 monstrous craven lord,
and fight with thine own hand and sword,
thou wielder of hosts of banded thralls,
thou tyrant leaguered with strong walls,
thou foe of Gods and elvish race!
I wait thee here. Come! Show thy face! "

Whew, what a guy! *fans face*

The Elves were such lovers of nature and beauty, that I think they basically got too comfortable, and thought "there's always time to tackle the Morgoth; let's enjoy the beauty here awhile first, that the Valar tried to take away from us."

And yes, the men were pretty tough dudes, too.
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ëí óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ à

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Rían is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2004, 11:37 AM   #16
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
Well - anyone else but me who thinks Fingolfin should have counted slowly to 10 ?!?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2004, 07:19 PM   #17
Rían
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
 
Rían's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,141
Nah, I think he waited long enough - remember, he was around when his dad was killed by Morgoth - the first death.
__________________
.
I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ëí óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ à

"How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks!

Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked!

Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus!
Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Rían is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2004, 06:09 AM   #18
Artanis
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
 
Artanis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
He should not have challenged Morgoth. There was nothing to achieve from it (other than giving us some great verses ). If he had taken the time to think he may have calmed down enough to see that there was still hope for the Noldor. Wouldn't he have been of better use alive?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die.
Artanis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2004, 12:17 PM   #19
Wayfarer
The Insufferable
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
Quote:
Why are the Noldorin Princes other than Fingolfin, Angrod & Aegnor ( the Athrabeth suggest than Finrod is possibly aligned with these 3 on this issue), most particularly the 7 Oathtakers, not more concerned with prosecuting the war against Morgoth?
My own opinion would be that elves simply aren't /made/ to prosecute a long-term war. They are individually impressive, and they shine in personal combat or singular engagements, but despite being immortals they really don't show the kinds of endurance and long term planning that Melkor did.

One gets the impression that, once the elves had managed to beat back Melkor's forces and hem him in, they slipped into a sort of "It's working! Let's keep doing that!" mentality. So instead of continuing the war, the paused to lick their wounds, and, well, their attention spans ran out (Ooh! Shiny stuff!).

Quote:
*How are the Noldor who need little sleep and have such heightened senses so badly surprised by the Sudden Flame?
*What is the nature of the Sudden flame that can outrun Elves on their super horses descended of Valinorian stock?
Well, living as I do in an area that at one time was composed of prairie, I think you'd be suprised at exactly how dangerous a fire can be in the right circumstances. With a good wind and dry grass to feed on, a blaze can spread quite fast. There have at least been reports of prairie fires moving faster than a horse can run, so I don't see it as much of a stretch that the elven horses would be overtaken.

Over a long period of inhabitation, it's been established that running is not the best way to combat a wildfire. But of course, the elves would have never met such a thing, and hence would have no idea how to deal with it. I don't find their deaths at all hard to believe.

However this is, of course, speculation. I'm not quite sure whether the landscape of Ard Galen would have allowed it. But it does seem quite plausible.

Quote:
It's somewhat reminiscent of the views of the people and leadership in France and Great Britain in the 1930s as Germany was getting stronger and more aggressive.
Actually, I'd say the comparison is very apt. The elves have beaten back one offensive from their enemy, so they settle in to wait for another, building up their forces for the same sort of confrontation- their own little maiginot line. Then they become complacent, and get wasted by the appearance of new weapons and tactics- Melkor's Bracollach and Hitler's Blitzkrieg.

There are significant differences, though, in the situations. Melkor was never really defeated like germany was, the method of warfare the elves were using was nothing like the trench warfare of WWI, and the political scene was really very different- there was no indicator of what melkor was planning, nor were there any attempts at appeasement by the noldor.

Quote:
Why does Morgoth so disdain human servants that he does not have armies of men attacking from the east at the same time he pours armies of orcs, trolls, wargs, etc out of the north. Heck, even the very arrogant Oathtakers can stomach allying with them.
It's a matter of control, I think. Mogoth spent a great deal of power dominating the minds of his armies, and he preferred beings that he could partially or wholly control. Orcs and Wargs had been altered to make them more to his liking, while trolls and dragons seem to have been made up out of whole cloth. Humans, on the other hand, have that pesky ability to determine their own fate. Not good material for the armies of an absolute tyrant- he used them, rather, as traitors and spies inside the camps of his human foes.

It is interesting to consider how things might have gone differently if he had spent some effort recruiting the humans. Sauron, for example, excercised an even greater degree of control over his orcish troops than did Morgoth, but he interspersed them with uninfluenced humans from the south and east. When Sauron fell, the orcs fled, but the men kept fighting.

Quote:
Is Sauron’s assault on Minas Tirith more a military one, or more a sorcerous one?
Considering what we see of sauron later on, probably more sorcerous. At the very least you would have seen the kind of siege-magics that were used in Gondor, and Sauron seems to rely extensively on his own power and his pack of werewolves to defend the place.

On the other hand, if it were mostly sorcerous then there would be little chance that casualties would be able to slow him down, would there? So chances are it was a mixed force.

Quote:
Are those First house of the Edain warriors tough bad asses or what? They are going to bleed those stinking orcs and whatever of Morgoth for every inch of their ground. A do not forget their women, successfully passing the fringes of the Ered Gorgorth and Nan Dungorthred.
Yes. (Grr. There's 5000 characters. Bah to post limits.)
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned
Wayfarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2004, 04:11 PM   #20
Lefty Scaevola
AngAdan
 
Lefty Scaevola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 847
Re: Discussion Topics

Quote:
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
9. Are those First house of the Edain warriors tough bad asses or what? They are going to bleed those stinking orcs and whatever of Morgoth for every inch of their ground. A do not forget their women, successfully passing the fringes of the Ered Gorgorth and Nan Dungorthred.
Here is a passage from JRRT's late essay, "Of Dwarves and Men" illustrating some general differences between the first and third houses of the Edain.
"..., but if these (House of Hador) surpassed them (House of Beor) in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, the Folk of Beor were more steadfast in edurance of hardship and sorrow, slow to tears or laughter, their fortitude needed no hope to sustain it." bold is mine
These are the guys I want on my flanks, my reserves, and the holding units of my center and guard. The Third House is for the vanguard, scouting forces, and shock forces of the center and cavalry. Hard to choose which for a rear guard. The 1rst house has the temperment for it, but you cannot argue with the Last stand of the Men of Dor Lomin.
__________________
Gaius Mucius Scaevola
Older, richer, and wiser than you
"Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"
Lefty Scaevola is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) 1997-2012, The Tolkien Trail